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Go Back   The Aerodrome Forum > Archives > 1998

1998 Closed threads from 1998 (read only)

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Old 29 December 1998, 07:28 PM   #21 (permalink)
Scout Pilot
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 400
What is the source for the information on
6 Albatros scouts of Jasta 20? I would
like to know more about this.
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Old 29 December 1998, 07:29 PM   #22 (permalink)
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What happened, did your system burp?
Al Lowe
The Billy Bishop Zone
You can get more with a kind word and a two by four, than just a kind word.
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Old 29 December 1998, 07:32 PM   #23 (permalink)
Michael Dailey
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On what specific post were you rung up for slander, libel, and defamation?

I have seen one post stating that Cowan may have been sued for libel had Bishop been alive at the time Cowans movie came out.

Is this the post that you are referring to?
Perhaps it is another post that I have missed.

I agree that it is unfair for anyone to refer to you as a corpse kicker, although I do not think such strong words were actually used towards you.

However, having referred to Bishop as a liar,
cheat, fraud, and phoney, and saying that 'Hanging
is too good for him' and also referring to Fonck and Collishaw in a derogatory manner, it may perhaps not be entirely surprising for someone to call you a corpse kicker. I'm not saying it is right, I just feel that if you can level so many names at Bishop, it is not surprising when a living person throws a name or two back at you.

I have not seen Markham's article myself but I understand it is well researched and effectively casts serious doubts on the occurrence of the raid. I also doubt Markham uses the words liar, cheat, fraud, and phoney to prove his points.

I think you have a splendid idea in making Markham's article available for forumites to read.
Perhaps it would be constructive to get with Scott and make this article available and we can all have done with this name calling and proliferation of futile cantankerous threads.


Old 29 December 1998, 08:12 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Location: Jacksonville, NC

You are correct when you ask for equal time to express your views, and you are equally correct when you doubt the records of Bishop. Even Al admits that the facts are weak in support of BB's "mystery mission."

There is a point at which one leaves the objective and crosses over to the subjective attack (or is it vice versa? Geeeeze, I dunno!). In any case, I think you crossed it.

Don't get me wrong, I have done the same thing, and we all will sooner of later. The correct response is to tap your left breast with your right hand afew times and to utter a few well-placed "mea culpa's" before you move on. Sack-cloth and ashes are optional.


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Old 30 December 1998, 03:23 AM   #25 (permalink)
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I believe the complete story of Bishops raid can be found in Grimms Fairy Tales.
Old 30 December 1998, 04:02 AM   #26 (permalink)
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For what its worth, it seems to me that the 2 June raid has better corroborating evidence than many of Bishop's CONFIRMED victories, which, assuming for the moment that they did occur, must have included a very large proportion of the OOC/DD type, given that they are not reported as losses by available German records. This aside, there does appear to be evidence that Jasta 20 was in the midst of a transfer between German Army commands at the time of the raid. Also Bishop's report concerning the number and types of planes he saw matches Göring's 1930 Air Ministry records concerning the on-the-move J20. Add to this the fact that the raid was investigated for over two months before the VC was awarded and you have to admit it is at least possible that Bishop did as he reported. Without question there is many an issue about BB that is open for debate, but I fail to see how one can state with CERTAINTY that Bishop's entire career was a farce.
Old 30 December 1998, 04:47 AM   #27 (permalink)
Posts: n/a
Hi Jim,

You raise a valid point! If you've seen my other replies you know of my admiration of Mannock and Mc Cudden. I'm certainly not Allied bashing.
My problem is with one man, one incident. (Career actually)

I tried to find a German pilot to use an analogy to Bishop to even things up but there's nothing remotely close.

Fredrich Noltenius has come under some scrutiny not for submitting unverifyable claims but for horning in on the victories of others.
Frommerz sent him packing from Jasta 27, Neckel got rid of him in Jasta 11. Still in all, in 13 of his 21 victories theres a corresponding Allied
casualty, either plane, pilot, unit, or balloon unit.
Show me 13 Bishop victories with corresponding
losses and I'll fly into the sunset (maybe).

Enjoy Hong Kong,

Old 30 December 1998, 04:51 AM   #28 (permalink)
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As a professional aviation historian, if I were writing the Bishop story today I'd have to conclude that the evidence currently is insufficient to support the VC. BUT, considering the newly-cited report of J.20's move, I'd also have to say that further investigation is called for. This info represents significant progress.
It's easy to assume that because so very few of Bishop's other claims can be substantiated that his VC raid also should be dismissed. But that wouldn't be ethical or fair. The history muse is a hard-hearted wench, and she demands OBJECTIVITY above all else.
Al and I have sparred over Bishop for just about a year now, and we've enjoyed it. In fact, we've even helped one another on a couple of other topics off-line. If he left the lists, we other cyberjousters would miss a persistent opponent!
You will not rise to the occasion: You will default to your level of training.
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Old 30 December 1998, 05:08 AM   #29 (permalink)
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You know what, forget the damn hiatus, I'm getting sick and tired of this crap.

It's the GERMAN casualty reports that came out of Grimm's fairy tales. They likely lost at least TWICE what they admitted to, trying to make the Allies feel like they paid more for their victory than the losers did.
Al Lowe
The Billy Bishop Zone
You can get more with a kind word and a two by four, than just a kind word.
-Marcus Cole, Anla'shok. Babylon 5
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Old 30 December 1998, 02:46 PM   #30 (permalink)
Posts: n/a you werent getting personal? Ive just reviewed.."read it slowly, or have someone explain it to you" sound familiar? Listen, Im not defending Al because hes Al, you can attack him, the Kaiser, or the Pope for all I care. Just do it elsewhere. And I resent your inference that defending Al is some sort of kowtow, liberalistic behavior. OK, my point? YOU ARE CLEARLY WRONG TO PERSONALLY ATTACK PEOPLE. I will only respect you if you can express your views rationally...which you have in the past(I have reviewed the threads, as Ive said.) try to do that again,and lets leave the petty crap behind.


whom, may, concern

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