F2B Bristfits

What really surprised me was when a DH9a pilot told me what a fine aircraft it really was. He was the only 9 pilot I ever talked to, so I don't have a concensus here, but he SWORE that the DH9a could maneuver quite well against the Fokker D7. He spoke in detail of one particular occasion (Oct '18) when his formation was attacked by D7's. One cut through the formation and pulled out in front of him. He fired and missed, then the D7 pilot sideslipped. He slipped his 9 onto the D7's tail and managed to stay there for a brief moment (didn't get him), but had to rejoin his formation. Leaving formation was a big no-no, often with fatal results. Anyway, he said he was amazed that he could stay with a D7 for even a fraction of a second, let alone slip a DH9a onto his tail. Of course, there are a lot of possibilities here... the D7 pilot, at that late stage of the war, could have been totally green or poorly trained, or the DH pilot could have been using his imagination (though in our extended corrospondence I doubt it very much). But there were some reasonably good two seaters hanging around by mid 1918, and an aggressive pilot with a sharp shooting observer could make some noise with one.

[stephen]

Oops. That was me. Mixed up name and subject. Sorry.

[mike_baram]

Had me scared for a bit, Stephen. I thought you might have some physiological abnormality.
Cheers.
Mike

Correct me if this is wrong, but I dont think you can catch syphilis from sitting.

80 Wing RAF used them as the high aspect of their wing formations. They and the SE5a's would patrol at 14 - 18 000 ft while the Camels would patrol at 10 - 14 000 ft. This suggests the Brisfit liek the SE5a was a better boom and zoom fighter, ie at its best when it was diving on an opponent than in dogfighting. It could use the forward gun on the way down and on the zoom up the observer could let off a load. Anyone know of examples of these tactics used by Britol Fighter aircrew?

cam

[stephen]

Actually, Mike, I have a number of abnormalities, although most of them seem to be mental and rarely respond to therapy.

Cam, I have not heard of "boom and zoom" tactics being employed regularly by Bristol crews, and I've spoken with enough of them that I THINK I would have heard something of the sort if that were the case (is that worth anything at all?). If they were a single seater, they would best have been flown as was the SPAD and SE 5. Not a true dogfighter, but more of a hit and runner. However, with the benefit of a rear gunner, it could be flown with a bit more audacity and often was.

I'd like to know more about Barker's endorsement of the F2b. I've just finished reading the new Barker bio, and the only real mention of the Brisfit concerns Barker's dislike of the machine while leading 139 in Italy. While he did do a few patrols on the type, as has been pointed out he didn't score while flying it. (Oddly, almost all of his victories were achieved while flying the same Camel, which must surely have set some kind of record for longevity for a single aircraft during the war.) Is there a source for this endorsement? When the F2b was introduced, Barker was, I believe, still flying BE-2s in a Corps squadron.

Cam, I have not heard of "boom and zoom" tactics being employed regularly by Bristol crews, and I've spoken with enough of them that I THINK I would have heard something of the sort if that were the case (is that worth anything at all?). If they were a single seater, they would best have been flown as was the SPAD and SE 5. Not a true dogfighter, but more of a hit and runner. However, with the benefit of a rear gunner, it could be flown with a bit more audacity and often was. <<<<

boom and zoom was a bad choice of words and means more from later parlance. Cutlacks History of the AFc ( sorry the refs I have are mainly AFC ) mention the pilot attacking with the forward gun and the gunner firing as the brisfit got into position to attack again. The diving wording you mentioned would probably be a better description for that time.

Either way it was using the guns facing forward and rear during the follow through as well as using extra speed from height or better position.

cam

[Barrett]

As noted, Barker claimed no victories in Brisfits while commanding No. 139. His pet Camel, B6313, went with him from No. 28 to 66 to 139, and according to ATT was the most successful fighter in RAF history: all of his 46 Camel victories came in that bird. He flew it almost exclusively from Sept '17 through Sept '18 for 380 of its total 404 hours. It was dismantled early Oct 18 and Barker filched the clock as a souvenir but was asked to return it the next day. I wonder if that valiant Sopwith was preserved.

[Vigilant]

They might have let him keep the clock!

Brilliant thought:
Could one of the reasons the 2 seat fighter concept had success in WWI be that the single seaters they were up against were not using the most powerful engines available?

As example:
The F2b usually had 275hp through the RR Falcon, while the Albatri had more like 180 or 200hp via their Daimler-Benz.

However, in WWpart deux, the ill-fated Boulton Paul Defiant had the 1030hp RR Merlin, which is no more hp than the Spit or Bf.109 carried.

PS Cam, what is your source for the 80 Wing formation? I'd like to read up a little on those 1918 "big wing" shows.