F2B Bristfits

[Vic_Mouton]

According to a few sources the F2B Bristol Fighter could hold it's own against the best German scouts in a dogfight. This is rather strange for a two-seater to have this ability. What made it so good?

BTW If an observer/gunner scored a victory in a two-seater. Did he get the credit or was it added to the pilot's tally?

VBR
Vic

In the RFC/RNAS/RAF, if an observer scored a victory, then it was credited to both the pilot and the observer. However, if the pilot of a two-seater shot down an opponent, only the pilot was credited with the victory (even though the observer was covering the pilot's back at the time!).

I am afraid I can't say what made the Brisfit so good but whatever it was, it worked!

The Rolls Royce engine of 275 HP and its sturdy construction made the Brisfit tough. William Barker was a leading exponent of this type.

[Barrett]

Barker led No. 139 Squadron Italy but continued flying his pet Camel--he never scored in the BrisFit and probably never flew the type in combat.
Some Over the Front studies show that the F2B took heavy casualties throughout the war, but it certainly was the best Allied two-seater. However, the leading BF aces weren't as successful as we've assumed: McKeever (31) and Thompson (30) both had 18 destroyed in conjunction with their gunners.
Those damned OOCs again...

Brother Barrett, you are correct about Barker not scoring on the Brisfit, but I never said he did. When the plane first appeared it was not popular with crews who perhaps did not appreciate its qualities. Barker liked the ship from the first time he flew it and his advocacy of the type helped to reverse the tide.

Thanks for your reply.

The key to the Brisfit's success was manoeuvrability. It could be flown as a single seater, with a rear gunner to cover the tail as an added bonus. If you get the chance, visit a Shuttleworth Collection airshow and see their F2B in the air. If you're lucky, the Collection's LVG CVI will be on the same bill. The difference in performance of these two seaters is startling (and the Bristol is the older design of the two!) The LVG is capable of no more than very flat turns, whereas the Bristol is much sharper.

No doubt the Bristol was a good plane. According to Arch (Bunker) Whitehouse, it was the most feared plane in the skies. In regard to holding its own against the best German fighters, this is more true when comparing it to the Albatros DV's and Pfalz DIII's it faced in the summer of 1917. I dont believe that Bristol crews would be nearly as eager to dance with a Fokker DVII.

[Vic_Mouton]

Did any observers qualify for ace status. Must have been nice to have an ace covering your tush.

VBR
Vic

[Barrett]

As usual, the answer to the question of observer aces is Grub Street. Above the War Fronts is primarily devoted to the subject (in addition to all aces of Belgium, Italy, A-H & Czarist Russia.) The authors ID 145 2-seat fighter observer aces (including OOCs) and 49 corps and bomber aces. Five-plus destroyed or captured credits quickly reduce these figures to 49 and 8, respectively. An even dozen FE and Brisfit gunners were "real" double aces, tops being these from No. 20 Sqn:

Newland 18.33
Cubbon 17.50
Edwards 17.50

By the RFC/RAF system the most successful gunner was Gass of No 22 Sqn with 39 victories but 16 destroyed.

[stephen]

Spent a LOT of time talking with a number of Bristol pilots from 20, 48 and 11. They felt as confident in their plane as any other pilots that I ever spoke with and several called it the best airplane of the war. However, at least three of those same pilots eventually came off second best against DVII's, which leads me to agree with Mark's conclusion that the Bristol only had real dominance over the Alb/PfD3 series through mid '18. 2Lt. Henry Wood (observer) of RAF 48 took out a DVII in a head on pass in Sept of '18, just to name one of many such incidents. The DVII passed less than a hundred feet below them (pilot: 2Lt Stanley Rycroft) and slightly to the left, under their wing. Wood opened fire at a sharp angle and followed the DVII right to left as it passed behind their tail, then turned over and gyrated out of sight. So yes, the trick could be done (sorry Barrett, it was an OOC victory). But overall, for whatever my experience with Bristol pilots is worth, the DVII seemed to have a clear advantage in most of the engagements that they described to me. And BTW, whether or not both crew members got credit for a kill depended entirely on which squadron you were with. Some squadrons (late war) even counted partial kills.