Another Bishop Thread

I apologize for my ignorance, but I am hoping to get some answers about Billy Bishop's career. Your responces are appreciated:

1. How many of Bishop's 72 confirmed victories were witnessed by another U.K. flyer or soldier?

2. Considering that Barrett's 'Victory Score' contribution credits Bishop with 55 "mission kills", how can it be said (as some have done) that he is a fraud? Doen't this 'mission kill' record look at German loss records in order to differentiate between questionable and 'proven' claims?

3. Is there documentation to show that Bishop made an early morning solo flight on 2 June 17? What does it say about the time of his departure and return? I have great difficulty with this issue since I am unable to identify FACTS among what I have read and what the record actually states. What did Bishop's report on the matter actually say?

4. Do German records exist showing the locations of all their frontline squadrons on this date? How many were within the time/distance allowance?

5. Can it be inferred from Bishop's report what type of enemy squadron he hit (fighter, bomber)?

6. What are the facts concerning the missing records of Jasta 20? If it is true that only the months of May - July 1917 are missing, why is this so? Do later records of J20 appear in this same source? If a squadron was beat to hell by a lone enemy pilot, tha's a good reason to lose your records, especially if you're the commander. Who was the leader of J20 at this time? What posting did he receive after 2 Jun 17?

7. What are details of Bishop's final day at the front? How many of his five confirmed claims were witnessed? How well are these claims supported by records of German losses?

[Billy_Bishop]

No need to apologize, more than a few people don't know all the anwers, including me.

1. According to my sources at least 24 of his claims were witnessed by either squadron mates, other RFC/RNAS/RAF flyers, or allied ground forces.

2. Actually Barretts "Victory Score" of 55 for Bishop is for DESTROYED, not Mission kills. Mission kills would be the balance of his 72 after the 55 are accounted for. All Barrett is doing is looking at the TYPE of claims Bishop put in. This doesn't compare them to German records. It simply differentiates between Destroyed/Captured and OOC-Out Of Control, and DD-Driven Down.

3. There is Bishop's combat report which shows he took off at 3:57 AM and landed at 05:40 AM
To help answer your questions, check out http://www.billybishop.net.

4. For the most part, copies of German records exist, but some are rather, "suspect". Although I'm sure I gonna catch flak for that one.

5. His report mentions seeing 6 Fighters and one 2-seater.

6. According to the copied records of Jasta 20, "nothing worth reporting" happened during the time period that is missing. And yes, the records do start up again from the same source, with three pilots missing from the roster. According to the records, the commander of Jasta 20 was one of the three who wasn't there in July when the records started up again. Yet according to the book " The Jasta Pilots " he never left. Which one is right? I don't know.

7. According to one source, at least 2 of his 5 claimed on 19 June, 1918 were witnessed. These claims are completely denied by German records. But then so was the only other claim put in that day by the RAF, from Capt. Cobby of AFC Squadron 1, and he had the body and wreckage to prove his claim. Yet the Germans said they lost neither plane nor pilot to combat that day.

VBR, (Very Best Regards)

Al Lowe
4-bit amateur aviation historian and/or enthusiast
Captain of the Billy Bishop Booster Bloc
Chief cook, bottle washer and diaper changer to King Joey I, Master of my apartment

[Billy_Bishop]

Just a quick clarification, a "mission kill" is a kill which stops the mission that the enemy was trying to carry out. An OOC is a mission kill, as is a DD. Either one of these forces the enemy to give up his mission.

In grading RFC/RNAS/RAF victory claims from WWI, you have to remember that they awarded victories differently from just about everyone else. The French started out giving victory claims similar to the Brits, but soon changed to destroyed or captured only, same as the Germans.

The US followed the rules of the sector they were in. IF a USAS Squadron was in a British Sector, they went by British scoring rules, when in a French sector, they went by French rules.

Both the British and French gave FULL credit to all involved in downing a single plane. Which lead to at least one incident where one German plane downed was worth 9 victory credits.

This is also why according to USAF Historical Study 133, Rickenbacker's score of 26 was downgraded to 24.33 due to shared kills.

AND the British system is responsible for a saying that's been floating around here...."A kill is always a victory, but a victory isn't always a kill."

VBR,

Al Lowe
4-bit amateur aviation historian and/or enthusiast

Thanks for the specifics Al. All I was driving at with point 2 is that with the British fighting on the 'wrong side of the lines', it was alot more likely for their claims to be more exagerated than those of the Germans. Countless examples are seen where a German plane is claimed by several Brits who receive credit, when in fact the plane in question returns to its German base. Neverthless, a large number of German planes were destroyed!

[Billy_Bishop]

Compared to what they managed to put in the air, yes, the Germans did lose a considerable number of aircraft.

The problem with trying to prove who did what however, is that a large number of the original German records were lost either during retreats in WWI, or in bombings during WWII. Some British and French records were lost during WWII as well. So it makes research even harder.

'The Jasta Pilots' records do reflect the one other claim of 19 Jun 1918. This source gives the victim as Unteroffizier Max Mertens from Jasta 7, shot down while attacking a balloon, they list Cpt Cobby as the victor, but have him assigned to 4th sqdn AFC at the time. This particular source lists no other losses for that day.

Regards,

MDD

Barrett may be interested to know that Cobby, out of 29 victories, claimed all but two as destroyed.

Regards,

MDD

[Barrett]

Michael me lad: now you started something! Just happens that at this very moment I'm compiling the full list of 112 or so "real" Camel aces. Ignoring the OOCs (which regular Forumites now know is my SOP for a more accurate comparison with everybody else) the top Camel scores were:

Barker 36.5
Woollett 27
Cobby 26.16
Gilmour 25.14
MacLaren 23.81
McEwen 22
McCloughry 20

Incidentally, assuming that the uncertain source of 1,294 e/a destroyed by Camels is correct, the "real" aces accounted for just about 80% of the total. This is way off the scale, but makes sense in that the Camel required an expert to fly and fight it well.

Must say I am still in the dark concerning the lengthy threads on Bishop of around a year ago when I first located this site. Again I apologize for not remembering the details, but it seems to me there were some good arguments both for and against Bishop's VC-earning raid. Obviously the fact that his commanding officer submitted a favorable report for which the King presented Bishop the VC suggests that the event happened. It is equally true that the aerodrome attacked was not reported and that German acknowelegment did not occur. Is this the reason why some doubt that the event ever happened? From all the information I have seen, the attack on Bishop goes as follows: He cheated while in military school, he was ambitious, he sought fame and glory, a large proportion of his claims were unobserved by allies and unconfirmed by enemy records, including his raid of 2 June. Without question the last point alone raises some measure of doubt, but why are people so anxious to revise history without more facts? Even IF all of the above anti-Bishop statements are true, they do nothing to PROVE that the 2 June raid never occured. The more you think about this, the more it seems as if someone needs to wade through the British and German archives -> investigate until something more conclusive can be said, either pro or con. Ignorant as I am on this topic, what else is known on either side of the issue? For example, when, where and with whom did the thought that Bishop shot through his own plane
originate?

[Billy_Bishop]

Michael, The Jasta Pilots may show the claim Capt. Cobby made, but according to Ira Jones in his book, "Tiger Squadron" when the German government was contacted AFTER WWI, they denied losing ANY planes or pilots to combat on that day.

Did the Germans change their tune later on? Who knows. That still leaves the question of 2 of Bishop's 5 claims that day that were reportedly witnessed by a Bristol F2B crew.

And the beat goes on....

VBR,

Al Lowe