Opinion Poll

>>>and isn't it odd that ground troops claimed the kill only after it was found that richthofen was the pilot? and when one is hedge hopping (as they were) brown could have been in such a position to make the fatal shot? to have made a shot that entered the right side at the ninth rib, and made an exit at the left nipple, one would only have to be a few feet below.
history will not be changed. a hundred years from now it will still show roy brown as being the man who shot down richthofen. it may be right, it may be wrong, but it will always recorded as such. i will always believe he did.>>>

First, there were actually reports giving credit to the machine gunners, and to Brown, from 4th Army HQ and RAF HQ, respectively - immediately after he was brought down (so perhaps both sides suddenly wanted to claim the credit, once his identity was established).

Second, the gunners WERE "only a few feet below" - eyewitness reports seem to show that it was Brown who was in no position to inflict the fatal wound.

In one way, you're right - it will probably never be settled, as long as there are those, like yourself, who find it easier (and perhaps more comforting) to believe he was brought down by another pilot, than to wade through all that boring evidence.

Rich

"while richthofen pursued his quarry at ever lower altitude along the somme river valley, and was himself followed by capt. brown, australian gun batteries also opened fire. consequently, the 53rd austrilian field artillery battery, 5th division, and the 24th machine-gun company claimed credit for downing the red triplane.
as the medical examination of manfred von richthofen's body revealed, the trajectory of the fatal bullet-entering at about the ninth rib on the right side, just behind the arm, and exiting near the left nipple - was such that proponents of either argument could use it to strenghten their arguments. as the triplane twisted and turned in those final moments, it could have been on a plane with ground gunners; and, during brown's pursuit, he could have fired from off-center and caused such a fatal wound".
peter kilduff; 1993. "beyond the legend of the red baron"
i doubt there is a greater authority on the subject.
BROWN KILLED RICHTHOFEN!

leon

as far as "THEY WERE THERE", one idiot can see a u.f.o. and suddenly, hundreds of witnesses would "CLAIMED" to have seen it too. as far as a "few feet below", that could be fifteen, twenty, fifty. for that wound, he (richthofen) would have to have been, what, five feet off the ground? i don't think so. try shooting at a moving target from a stationary position, while its moving at about a hundred m.p.h., you could'nt get the muzzle around fast enough to get an aimed shot off. if you did, at that speed it would hit him square in the back. now think about being behind and moving at the same speed. not great odds either, but alot better i should think.

leon

Leon, the problem with your argument is that the historical record shows that Brown was NOT flying at low level with May and von Richthofen. I concede that it also says Brown killed MvR, but the facts show this is not so. Brown fired on MvR 2 to 3 minutes prior while diving and while all three planes were at a much higher altitude. NUMEROUS ground observers verify this. They also verify that only two planes continued to fly low over the Somme Valley until the German was fired on by ground batteries. Brown's plane is already several minutes out of the picture. Numerous forumites have argued that we should read the Franks book on this topic. I soon will but dont need it -- the Carisella book is positively convincing. Do yourself a favor, check it out, this is not a conspiracy -- hundreds of observers can NOT be wrong. In your last response you went as far as saying that either Brown or the ground gunners could have done it. I'm hoping now to sway you to the other side. Read the Carisella book, look at the countless witnesses descriptions and you will be convinced.

Interesting that you use a reference which does not come out and say that one or the other claim is true, and end with your emphatic "BROWN KILLED RICHTHOFEN!". I have also read Kilduff's "Beyond the Legend..." (Published 1993), one of my favorite books. I also own the same author's The Red Baron Combat Wing (published 1997). In that book, he states, "At this late date, no one can prove conclusively just who shot down the red Fokker Triplane at Vaux-sur-Somme. MOST PROBABLY (emphasis mine)an Australian gunner, possibly even a rifleman, fired the shot that ended the life and career - but not the legend - of the Red Baron. Even if the .303 calibre bullet had been recovered, it would have been of a type common to rifles and machine-guns used by British troops." As you said, there is probably no greater authority on Richthofen's life in general, but as for his death, perhaps he has begun to be swayed by some of the work done by those who have devoted more detailed study to his last day. Frankly, Kilduff seems to be more interested in documenting the Baron's overall history(and that of JG1) than in trying to definitively end the controversy.

Interestingly enough, this bullet is mentioned prominently in Carisella's book. BTW, the Carisella book is most likely out of print, but is supported quite well by "The Red Baron's Last Flight", also published in 1997.

Rich

[Billy_Bishop]

Well, the way I heard it, MvR was first hit in the arm, causing him to crash, then as he was struggling to get out of the cockpit, someone came up and shot him.

Sounds more like murder to me.

VBR,

Al Lowe
4-bit amateur aviation historian and/or enthusiast
Big time trouble maker and rumour monger.

[Billy_Bishop]

As of 2223 hrs CST on Dec. 26, 1998, Brown still leads all others combined with 231 out of 451 votes, giving him an 11 vote lead over all the other choices COMBINED!!!

Can we start another poll.....PLEASE?????

VBR,

Al Lowe

Yes! Since we already have 5 or 6 threads on it, let's have the next poll about Bishop's airdrome raid. Did he or didn't he?

[Barrett]

Hmmm...regarding a new opinion poll, how about combining The Best Of All Possible Threads? To wit:
Resolved, that Billy Bishop shot down von Richthofen. If nobody can prove that Roy Brown did it, then presumably nobody can prove that Bishop didn't, even if No. 85 Sqn was still in Blighty at the time. (Bish could've hopped into C6490 and popped over for a spot of shooting.)
Al, the big advantage to this theory is that it keeps the Canadians in play!

Barrett Tillman
Not an honourary Canadian, but I've landed at Abbotsford, BC, quite a few times.
"On the edge of the hangar I can test my destiny against the tarmac below.
"Ah, get me a ladder, ay?"

if i can get hold of a copy, i'll read it. i'll even read it with an open mind, but it will take a lot to convince me. an awful lot. richthofen, as i'm sure you've read in other threads, is my all time hero. i don't beleive brown killed him because of some romantic notion of being shot down by another pilot. on the contrary, i hate the thought of that being the case. i wish he had never had been "killed", but rather, died of old age. however, thats not the case, and from all i've read about richthofen, i believe brown did it.

leon