Opinion Poll

[Billy_Bishop]

At the time that I wrote this, 1:00PM CST Dec. 24, 1998, Brown was the #1 choice over all the others combined on the current opinion poll, with 220 votes of 435 cast.

Amazing, isn't it?

VBR,

Al Lowe

Al,

It certainly is, and I guess it shows how we love to hold onto our cherished myths, and the more "romantic" version of history. Almost 30 years ago, I received an autographed copy of Carisella & Ryan's "Who Killed the Red Baron", and was pleasantly surprised when Norman Franks and Alan Bennett backed up this earlier work in "The Red Baron's Last Flight".

In the end, any answer to this question will be no more than an opinion, but some are more informed than others. Then again, we in the States have seen lately just how reliable polls are.

Rich

[Vic_Mouton]

Al

Remeber in any one-man(person?)-one-vote system, the compete idiot's vote counts just as much as yours.

VBR
Vic

A dangerous threadline, as we all know, Al!It seems that ones belief about this topic is akin to religious belief.No one wants to change-it'd be heresy.So, no jihads please, folks...

I think the average person that is just passing through and knows nothing of WW1 aviation might be inclined to pick whatever name appears on top.

an earlier thread asked "what three pilots would you save". someone then suggested that an explantion be given as to why. i voted for brown and the reason i did so comes from a book titled 'the red knight of germany', written in 1928 by floyd gibbons. on page 204 it says, 'as the australian machine gunners claimed at the time that the red plane had been brought down by fire from the ground, a post-mortem examination was held by army and air medical officers, who agreed that richthofen died from a single bullet wound which had traversed his breast from the right to the left side. the air medicos probed the wound and stated that the "situation of the entrance and exit wounds are such that they could not have been caused by fire from the ground."
this is not to try and change the opinion of visitors to this site, but is the basis of my opinion.

a safe and merry christmas to all,

leon

<<. i voted for brown and the reason i did so comes from a book titled 'the red knight of germany'>>

...and, according to Franks & Bennett, Gibbon's account was based on flawed information, partly due to the fact that the official records were sealed by the Air Ministry for 50 years. Both they and Carisella cite the autopsy, to prove the opposite. So it goes on...

Rich

It's really not that difficult to 'prove' that a shot from the ground killed von Richthofen.

In the preparation of his book 'Who Killed the Red Baron', P.J. Carisella interviewed literally hundreds of individuals WHO WERE THERE. When you consider the information supplied by these men....

Consider that: (1) EYEWITNESSES closest to the scene of the Jastas 11 & 5 / Squadron 209 dogfight are on record having seen a Camel followed by a triplane with a second Camel DIVING to fire at the triplane but NOT pursuing it. The 2nd Camel was shooting DOWNWARD as he DOVE. The Baron's death wound is right to left going forward with the front/left exit wound slightly HIGHER than the rear/right entrance wound. How could such a wound be inflicted by Brown as he DOVE on the triplane? I guess anything is possible, but this certainly describes one magic bullet. (2) Multiple eyewitnesses located further west (closer to the crash site) report only two planes flying very low, with the Camel taking extensive evasive manuevers and the triplane matching him turn for turn. All are in agreement there is no third plane at this time, as Brown had already fired and flown for home. In fact none of these observers ever even saw Brown's plane. Assuming that Brown's DOWNWARD shot had somehow travelled on an UPWARD course through the lungs/heart/aorta of von Richthofen, then we must give von Richthofen his due for continuing to match May's Camel turn for turn with his plane under perfect control. Medical science would state that a man hit through the heart would have other things to worry about. Carisella's interviews of countless individuals WHO WERE THERE leave no doubt that the triplane was under perfect control for several minutes AFTER Brown's Camel was out of the picture, following May's Camel turn for turn while firing.

Finally, if you consider the testimony of the ground gunners who actually fired on von Richthofen, as well as those who observed this fire, you get even more convincing evidence. The triplane banked immediately upon coming under fire (first recognition of being over enemy lines or MvR finally deciding the heart wound was bad enough to give up the chase 2-3 minutes after being hit?). Next the triplane turns sharply to evade bullets so that the right wings of the plane face the ground (does this make it more reasonable to believe that Brown or the ground gunners got him?). Additional shots were fired as this occured, the pilots head was observed to have jerked back, and goggles were seen to be flung off and the plane immediately came down (delayed reaction or was he just hit now?).

We are all entitled to our opinions, but I choose to believe the accounts provided by men who were there. There are more than enough of these reports on record to see that ground fire brought down the Red Baron. The only real mystery is which of the ground gunners did it?

"Close doesn't only count in horseshoes", Roy Brown.

and isn't it odd that ground troops claimed the kill only after it was found that richthofen was the pilot? and when one is hedge hopping (as they were) brown could have been in such a position to make the fatal shot? to have made a shot that entered the right side at the ninth rib, and made an exit at the left nipple, one would only have to be a few feet below.
history will not be changed. a hundred years from now it will still show roy brown as being the man who shot down richthofen. it may be right, it may be wrong, but it will always recorded as such. i will always believe he did.

leon

The horseshoes statement is my way of conceding that history will always say Roy Brown did the dirty deed. But clearly this is wrong! Your point about Brown being below while firing the fatal wound is indefensible - as I stated earlier the record clearly shows that Brown did nothing more than fire on the triplane while diving at it. Literally hundreds of men who were there claim only two planes at low level with the Fokker matching the Camel turn for turn. This is not someone in 1998 talking, this is a multitude of men who were there. Finally, concerning von Richthofen's identity: he was identified within five minutes of his landing. Your implication doesn't wash - the ground troops knew who he was long before any of the British airmen did. No doubt Brown thought he got the triplane, but the observations of hundreds of ground observers are proof positive that he did not.