WW 1 pilots without a kill

Where there any WW1 pilots without kills through the whole war?

[stephen]

Yes. Most of 'em.

Most squadrons had 1 or 2 star scorers at any given time; maybe half a dozen at most throughout the war. That goes for Germans and Allies alike. The Germans tended to give their top guns the best and latest equipment available so that they could continue to mount their victories. The British and French awarded "roving" commissions for their stars to wander the skies at will in search of easy prey. Germany, France and England (to a lesser extent) all tried to concentrate their top pilots into single units and send them to the hot areas of action.

Having more than 1 or 2 aces in any squadron at any given time was a rarity... having half or more of the pilots in any given squadron with even a single confirmed victory was even more rare. The average pilot in WWI, IMHO, did not score a single confirmed DES kill.

Maybe that's why it rubs me the wrong way to hear any particular ace getting defrocked. Whether or not you liked his style, having any of the aces on your tail - even the so-called minor aces - was a virtual death sentence. Howard Burdick of the 17th was a great example. "Only" 8 kills, but a brilliant flyer and an outstanding man to have on your wing. Drop your D7 in front of Burdick's Camel and you had about 10 seconds to live. Shooting down aircraft in WWI (DES, not OOC) was not a simple task, and very few had the knack.

[Darryl]

Absloutely agree with you Stephen. It constantly amazes me that whilst holding on to vivid illusions of swirling dogfights with chivalry prevailing, people still expect that MAJORITY of pilots to have amassed a large score.
If everyone is scoring, who the hell is getting shot down???
This is the great thing about The Jasta Pilots, it lets you see all the names whether they scored or not.
Does anybody know of a similar book covering the British and Commonwealth? They Fought for the Sky is great but doesn't cover the sort of TJP details (in fairness, it as never meant to, it is mainly devoted to casualties).

Best regards

Darryl

[Barrett]

Yes indeed: if everybody scored, then what about the first guy ever shot down? Somebody had to be the first victim!!!!
I dissected The Jasta Pilots this summer and generated some impressive stats. Roughly 46-48% of German fighter pilots scored during WW I, and I believe that to be a much higher ratio than any other service. The Grub Street Guys do NOT intend a similar study of the Brits (there were about 3,000 Germans, I think) but said French may be possible. Attrition ran at about 25%.
However, just because a fighter pilot didn't score is no indicator that he was dead weight. If he was a leader, if he had great eyes, if he was always there to clear his partner's tail, he made a contribution. "Tillman's Law" (aka the 10-30 rule) holds that in nearly every air war, about 10% of the fighter pilots gain about 30% of the kills. Aces are important, but fact be known: all of us spend far too much time studying them to the exclusion of the others. OTOH, as Frank Olynyk noted, we study the poets who are buried in Westminster Abbey more than the others combined.

I agree with what everyone else has said so far but would like to add Recently there was a post entitled" Instant ace" one of the treads talks abought a Brithish pilot comeing across a traing flight and baging the instuctor and his five charges assumeing that 60% survived to fly again (i think thats an over large number ) that makes 2 pilots who would never make a kill or fly again As we have seen by the example of blocke and the posilble Example of Immelman It doesn't have to be an enemy bullet that gets you but bad luck a faluty machine or just a half second of not paying attention to were you are. If Blocke and Immelman and who knows how many other very experinced pilots could fall that way how abought thekid out on His first combat patrol most likely the first thing this kid will see of the enemy is looking over his shoulder to see were all the bullets are comeing from and the last thing anyone will here of him is some german/french/british/belgan ect officer telling his buddies how he got his latest kill. Let us now examin how many trainies were killed in training before they ever see tthe enemy. Also How many Potental Von Richthofens and albert Balls never scored a kill because they were stationed in areas that didn't allow for it like the Zepplin Defence of london or the Fleet air arm or Turkey . and one last thing wile setting up the air force's Red flag Red barron Combat corces the US AF studied all air combat and found that a pilot who survived his first 10 combat misions would have a 50% better chance of survival .Locking at all those who died or were to mangeled to fly again after verry impresive carrers you have got to wonder how many times a patrol came back and the following sean was played out
"any action?
"we ran to a a flight of albatrosses over the trenches we bagged two maybee three, Alex took a shot in the engine or something he had to put down>"
"Any one else?"
"Oh yes that new Kid whats his name?"
"Sorry never met him"
Oh o'well he gets one on his tail and the next thing I know is he's a ruddy grease stain in the middle of no man's land."
"oh well C'est la Guear you fancy a drink?"
"Thought you'd never ask old boy"

[Vigilant]

How about the RE8/Breguet/DFW crew who conducted a dozen successful artillery shoots? They may not have got any aerial victories but they've probably killed more enemy and helped their side more directly than any ace, MvR included.

vigilant Im not so shure abought that you don't win a war by killing the enemy but distroying his will to fight. The propaganda and morale value of the fighter ace is a verry strong weapon to keep your side fighting you can do the same thing by distroying his eqipment and ablity to fight but it takes much longer and is much harder

[Vigilant]

Phil, You make a very sound point. Quite right.

you don't when a war by killing the enemy?
i'm sure you meant something else.
propaganda only takes you so far

Battles are won by taking ground and killing the enemy.
Wars are won politically!
Or so it seems to me!
Cheers
Paul