Blasphemy!

McCudden did exactly the same thing. I consider him at the top of the heap as well.

Regards,

MDD

What pilot would have survived for two years constantly crossing swords with McCuddens, Mannocks, Foncks, Lukes etc.? That is why the ones who do the most damage (i.e. the most successful ones) choose their battles.

Regards,

MDD

MDD,
My point exactly! So what made MVR so great again?

C.Grube

[Rittm]

You know there is something strange yet amusing watching you all discuss this. A target is a target. An enemy is an emeny. Those are the facts of war on all sides.
Rittm

Mr Grube,

I guess we agree on the advisability of constantly testing your skills against other aces in combat hehe. I guess where we disagree is on the criteria for greatness. I think the tactical acumen demonstrated by the likes of McCudden and Richthofen in dictating the terms of combat to the enemy is a factor contributing to their greatness, and not a diminishing factor.

Regards,

MDD

Rittmeister,
So you finally took the bait! I figured you were watching all this. So, Who do you think would of won if BOTH Mr. Hawker and MVR had been flying the same type of a/c, over neutral territory ?

C.Grube

Rats.

Once again I am the unwitting pawn of a clever bait and switch chain yanking operation.

Regards,

Mongo

[Shooter]

Cee:

I believe (and the best I can do is back this with is anecdotal evidence, so do not put my feet too far into the fire!) that what made Manfred von Richthofen and all of the other top shooters of aerial warfare notable was their ability to do what they did for as long as they did it, without breaking under the incredible psychological strain that combat produces.

Emotional strain almost certainly had a hand in the undoing of Ball and MvR, and may well have influenced the poor judgement which did in Mannock and McCudden.

Tempo of operations, length of combat exposure, and the constant evidence of the horrible death which could overtake them in the sky, all wore against the personal fortitude of aviators in combat in both World Wars. And only the top fifteen percent of the drivers were truely successful by any quantitative analysis (and in the Great War, it was less than that).

What makes these men (and rarely women) admirable is that they did what they did at all, not who they bested in the process. The ace of all aces, Major Erich Hartmann has admitted many times that he would avoid any contest that even resembled a fair fight. Yet I would hesitate to question his ability, because anyone who flew that long, that many sorties, that many combats, and achieved that many victories IS able. None of his records are likely to ever be matched, and they do speak for themselves. What is even better is that he survived his war, something that eluded MvR.

respectfully submitted,


Bill

[stephen]

Don't knock MvR's victory list until you check out - thoroughly - the last six weeks of his career. He took on the best the RAF could send out and continued to score consistently in spite of combat fatigue.

I'm with C. Grube. MVR is highly overrated. I think that even his brother Lothar was a more skilled pilot. Yes, I'll agree that Manfred was a opportunist, a shrewed pilot and employed good
tactics, but that doesn't make him the great ace everyone makes him out to be.