Blasphemy!

[Rittm]

My apologies Mike,
I just haven't been in completely whimsical mood lately. I shall endeavor to be more whimsey.
Rittm

[PeterL]

Okay girls that's it...you can all hand in your hall passes right now!!!!!!
I'm no Richthofen groupie heaven knows, but can we at least all agree that in MvR we are talking about a genuine 24 carat hero and leave it at that? Now get some sleep, it's a school day to-morrow.

Peter L

Peter,
The thread was not about whether MvR was a hero or not, it was one man's opinion about his not being the best. As far as a school day goes for tomorrow, I wouldn't mind setting in class all day, at least it'd be a break from the monotony out here on the deep blue. I'm sorry GOSH... I must've lost my hall pass about 30 years ago.
I really will have to be more astute about keeping track of those funny "pink slips". Heh-heh.
VBR,
Jim

Jim Ace;
Ok, I'll admit I'am MvR groupie. I enjoy our debate over his wonderful talent, as apposed to your hero slaying keen edged computer. You make life more interesting, but maybe someday I'll convince you!
Rittm;
Have you been spying on me. Bringing up the subject of rape after the weekend I had is rather strange.
Love you all
Jeni

Jeni,
When one lives out here on the cutting edge as I do, one learns what actions one can term heroic and what one can term as a good job. To me heroic is Voss fighting against overwhelming odds to a certain death but continuing to fight when he could've fled. Or like the Congressional Medal Of Honor winner that I met while stationed at Lemoore Naval Air Station, who singlehandedly charged and subdued a Japanese machine gun nest, while being wounded in the process. Like the Navy Corpsman who repeatedly crawled through enemy gunfire in Viet Nam to aid wounded Marines while disregarding his own wounds (which he succumbed to). The hero's are those that go above and beyond, where uncommon valor is common virtue. The guy that fights the good fight even when he's losing...that's a Hero. My hero's are Wyatt Berry Stapp Earp, standing face to face with his adversaries and shooting it out. Eddie Rickenbacker, overcoming incredible naivete of aerial warfare to become America's Ace of Aces in 8 short months. He survived the war too, I might add and survived weeks at sea in the Pacific on a raft during the Second World War. Or the young terrified soldier who crouched in his foxhole staring at the hundreds of Chinese soldiers coming down from the hills at the Frozen Chosin in Korea yet doesn't break and run. The 101st Airborne at Bastogne (named the Magnificent Battling Bastards of Bastogne) during the Battle of the Bulge in WW2
they were surrounded and just about out of ammo, facing a numerically superior enemy force, when asked by the German commander to surrender, Brig Gen. Anthony McAuliff replied "Nuts", holding on to the city until relief reached them. These to me are the real hero's, not some guy who always had everything in his favor when he went out to fight. To me a true hero overcomes incredible odds that are stacked against him,often times are fatal to him, but he goes on despite those odds.
That's my heros, so now perhaps you'll understand why I think the way I do.
VBR,
Jim
P.S. I'll never think of MvR as anything but a good pilot. You won't change that.

[Rittm]

Jeni,
No, I haven't been spying upon you, but I have noticed your absence from the forum lately. Are you okay?
Rittm

Richthofen was not an excellent flyer is true, but most pilots in that era were fair to middling pilots.
singling out planes that fled a dog fight was the Baron's forte,(called sharking) while not exactly romantic or chivalrous, it was, and is a common air-air tactic.

Ayton,
Thanks so much for validating my other point of long ago, MvR was no the most chivalrous pilot of the Great War.
VBR,
Jim

[PeterL]

Jim Ace, I take your point, but I just wonder why, at the butt ends of the twentieth century and the second millenium, we are so obsessed with de-bunking the heros of past generations. It's not like it's even confined to these pages, or even WW1, it's everywhere. Is it because we have no heros of our own? Even the immitation heros we do have, sports stars pop idols and the like, must take their turn as Aunt Sally.
On this Forum in recent weeks not only MvR has come under attack, Fonk and Bishop have been regular targets with others being caught in the cross-fire. My interest in WW1 is I suppose my hobby. I read, I paint, I make models; all around WW1 subject matter. No doubt others on this forum can say the same. Like me the probably first came to it in their youth, attracted by stories of heroic exploits.I have the impression that there may even be one or two visiting and contributing to this forum who are at that very stage right now. I just hope we are not denying them the same route we took to a lifetime interest .
We all want to know the truth behind the legends, even or perhaps especialy the rookies. But it is possible to lift a curtain without actualy tearing it down.

sorry guys, had to get it off my chest

Peter L

[stephen]

Why are we so obsessed with debunking heroes? Because we are a generation of unappreciative morons who have had everything handed to us by the sacrifices of previous generations. We haven't the slightest inkling of the price that was paid, and worse yet, no longer hold dear the principles which made our forefathers willing to pay that price in the first place. To confound matters even further, we are now facing an onslaught of pointy headed elitists who are educated beyond their capacity by so-called institutions of higher education who's real purpose is to indoctrinate, not educate.

The result is the constant tearing down of people whom we once aspired to emulate, be they enemies or allies, because their values are no longer held in public esteem by those who consider themselves worthy of making such a judgement. And the arrogance of people who perpetuate these attacks (another result of their institutional indoctrination) will not allow them to rationally evaluate the positions of people who oppose them, so they resort to psychological hyperbole to explain your views and attempt to reduce you to a hero-worshipper or groupie.

It takes an obscene amount of arrogance... arrogance by the bucketload... to face insurmountable historical evidence of an individual's accomplishments and heroism, and proceed to debunk them as something less because they have supposedly learned "the truth behind the legend."

There is obviously much historical work left to be done in many areas, but every once in a while, when someone writes history the first time, it turns out to be true... and the elitists just can't accept that.

Whew. I step aside to watch the fireworks.