Blasphemy!

I'm going to stir up a hornet's nest, but here it goes.
I have been reading about WW1 aviation since I was a child, and several on the bloody baron himself. It became quite clear early on that MVR was only an average pilot at best, and by his own admittance, would single out fledgling enemy flyers to shoot down. Also by his own admittance, and practice, would only engage combat on his own terms. Upon further research I found that the majority of his victims were lumbering two seaters. I realize that some of these types of observation a/c were formidable when manned by experienced crew,but they must have been easy prey when flown by an eighteen or nineteen year old kid with less than twenty hours flight time!!
Killing kids is easy. I venture to say that dear old Manfred met his match with lanoe Hawker and, by all rights should have been killed that day. He just got lucky!!

What do you think?

C.Grube

[PeterL]

Only accepted combat on his own terms.Destroyed mostly aircraft engaged in tasks of immediate value to the enemy.Survived over two hundred combats and destroyed eighty a/c most of which can still be confirmed by existing records..Let me see now..no, I've lost it..what was the problem again?

Peter L

[Darryl]

Actually the DH2 was inferior to the Albatross in almost all respects. Far from getting lucky MvR played to the strengths of the aircraft, was over his own lines, had a westerly breeze to help him and Lanoe misjudged the peril until it was too late.
Manfred killed 18-19 year old kids, yes. I kind of thought that was what he was there for!

regards

Darryl

How old was MVR when he first flew in combat?
This man was doing what he was sent to do .
18 year olds die in war, they have for years. MVR died in battle. What is the point? There were 18 year olds shot down on both sides.

No argument here with engaging the enemy only on your own terms, that sounds like the approach of a pretty good tactician to me. Hitting the enemy where he is weakest (i.e. two seaters, inexperienced pilots) also sounds like good tactics as well. I think flying and shooting skills are necessary but good tactics should also be taken in to account when evaluating a pilot.
Having said this it should also be mentioned that Lanoe Hawker is not the only allied ace shot down by MvR and even though the major portion of his tally consist of two seaters (which played a more valuable role for the enemy, by the way) he did shoot down several Sopwith Camels and SPADs, fighters every bit as good as what he was flying at the time. There may have been pilots who flew better, shot better, etc. but I don't think there were any who comprehensively flew, shot, employed air tactics, and led air units better than he did. I do agree that the result of the Hawker battle may have been different had it been over allied territory with different aircraft etc. since Richthofen didn't get Hawker until he was forced to run for his own lines. Remember though,
Hawker was forced to run because he didn't manage to get Richthofen.

Regards,

MDD

1990's sensibilities applied to 1916-17. MvR was not a flashy 'top gun'. I agree with the prev. repiles,cant say it better, but would add: dont forget the effect of the reputation on the enemy! I recall reading that some allied pilots were afraid to go up against the possibility of facing him. I would also, cant blame 'em. When your enemy fears your presence, I'd say youre a good fighter pilot.

People,
Reputations are nothing more than a story put out by word of mouth. True he had 80 kills, true he always fought on his terms, true he picked out rookie pilots and brought down two seaters, but don't forget he made his own rookie mistake that cost him his life (which BTW he made while in pursuit of a rookie pilot). As far as killing 18 and 19 year old kids... I have to quote Rule .303 on that one... "In war it is customary to kill the enemy" said Breaker Morant.
VBR,
Jim

I think there is a reason for a reputation.Its not just made up out of nothing,(except in high school )

[mike_baram]

In previous wars, 12-year-old drummer boys got killed. In the British army, young men armed with bagpipes died. Throughout history, teenagers served with older men (the Civil War is an excellent example). Unfortunately the prime rule is "if you're there, you're a target".
The universe was never known for fairness.

[Shooter]

All:

Old soldiers never die, young ones do. That is their lot in life. You pay your nickle, you take your chance.

Michael, I believe that one of the driving factors that drove Hawker toward the Allied lines was the fact that he was on or near "bingo" with his fuel supply. Like Voss in his epic fight with B/56 Sqdrn, he could not disengage because his a/c was too slow. Fatal flaw in that model was that your timed its air-speed with a calander.

Guys, top shooters do not get to be top shooters by locking horns with top shooters from the OTHER side. Most of the time, they seem to wander around and pick off the scrubs, running up a big score. This seems to be true of all of the big guys on all sides, in every air war. Notable exceptions occur (like Major Marion Carl USMC zapping Lt(jg)Junichi Sasai IJN over the Slot) but they are very much exceptions.

Slamming MvR for the same stuff that Mick Mannock, or Fonck did would be hypocrisy. Clipping a rook is as acceptable as is hitting a driver from behind and below. Rookie drivers were out there to be shot down. Manfred was just doing HIS yob, too!

r/s

Bill