About Billy Bishop

11 December 1998, 03:44 PM

Dear Al,

You certainly have enough ammunition to make a case! However I respectfully agree to disagree. If I got yor blood going lets also talk about Collishaw and Fonck. As far as I'm concerned, you can put all three in a bottle, shake 'em up and see who comes out first!

VBR,

FokkDr1

Billy_Bishop · 11 December 1998, 03:47 PM

It's easy, 80+ years after the fact, lack of verifiable evidence, comments made by jealous contemporaries, more comments made by anti-colonial English Contemporaries, other people putting their own subjective spin on what evidence does exist. And a movie producer who figures the best way to make a name for himself is to trash the reputation of one of Canada's greatest heroes of the 20th century.

Need I say more??

VBR,

Al Lowe
2-bit amateur Aviation Historian and/or enthusiast

Billy_Bishop · 11 December 1998, 04:10 PM

Fonck, I don't know about, except to say that in addition to his 75 confirmed, he had another 50-52 unconfirmed. So I have to assume that there was something to the 75 claims that were confirmed.

As to Collishaw, I honestly don't know that much about him either. All I can say really about any of the aces is that their scores were confirmed. How much weight this carries, is in the eye of the beholder.

I've heard some who say they doubt MvR's score too, but my take on this is, he has 80 confirmed victories. End of story.

In all of these cases, unless someone can come up with something conclusive, such as the case of

Mick Mannock's score. This was thought to be 73 for decades. During that time very few publications every published anything to the contrary. Now the Grub street guys have more or less made it official, it least as official as it gets for something that really has no official status with any air force. As of

Above The Trenches, Mick Mannock's score is now seen by most people to be 61, and not 73.

By the same token, they have not come up with anything to dispute Bishop's score of 72 confirmed. Neither have they disputed Fonck's 75.

Some other scores widely held to be different have changed as well.

Lanoe Hawker, MvR's 11th victim was long thought to have a score of 9 victories. This has now be placed properly at 7.

Elliot White Springs was long credited in published lists with 12 victories. This has now been corrected to 16. The pendulum swings both ways.

It is your right to disagree, but for now the "Official" records are on my side.

If you discount the "official" records on Bishop, then you throw doubt on ALL official records by association.

Is my approach simple?? Yes, but with ever dwindling evidence there's really little else to do.

VBR,

Al Lowe
2-bit amateur aviation historian and/or enthusiast

Billy_Bishop · 13 December 1998, 12:31 AM

Since I've not had any replies to my last message, I guess I win!!!

VBR,

Al Lowe
2-bit aviation historian and/or enthusiast

Billy_Bishop · 13 December 1998, 12:48 AM

Hi Michael, sorry I didn't reply to your message before, but I just noticed it today. Since I'm not sure that you'll see anything here, as this thread seems to have died, I have replied to you in email.

VBR,

Al Lowe
2-bit amateur aviation historian and/or enthusiast

13 December 1998, 05:18 AM

Thanks for your reply. The Rickenbacker story I will have to research and get back to you, but it went something like after the war was over Billy invited US pilots to make claims on enemy aircraft which many of them did. All claims were granted. I promise to research this and get back to you. I read the article in the last couple of days, so I know it is here.

By the way, does this mean that the German figures for kills has more validity than the Allied ones? How about the K u K airforce? How did they establish a claim?

An old history teacher and VERY amateur historian.

Billy_Bishop · 13 December 1998, 03:49 PM

Previously Leo said...
"Thanks for your reply. The Rickenbacker story I will have to research and get back to you, but it went something like after the war was over Billy invited US pilots to make claims on enemy aircraft which many of them did. All claims were granted. I promise to research this and get back to you. I read the article in the last couple of days, so I know it is here.

By the way, does this mean that the German figures for kills has more validity than the Allied ones? How about the K u K airforce? How did they establish a claim?

An old history teacher and VERY amateur historian"
----------------------------------------------
Regarding Rickenbacker and everyone else. When you say "Billy invited US Pilots...", are you referring to

Billy Bishop?? I don't see how he could have authority to grant credit for claims placed by the USAS. He wasn't in such a position. In fact he was seperated from the service not long after the armistice, so he had no standing in that manner whatsoever.

And what is the "K u K Airforce"?

AND, firstly, the correct term is victory. Whenever a WWI pilot put in a claim for a downed aircraft, it was termed a "Victory claim". As I said before, the RFC granted "victory claims" for aircraft that were not necessarily destroyed. The French did to, but to a lesser degree. The Germans only granted victory claims for destroyed/captured enemy aircraft....as far as I know.

Basically, that's why German claims are closer to the actual number of lost Allied aircraft, and why Allied claims exceed German Losses, that and the Allies gave full credit for shared claims.

So far as I know, the German system was one claim to one pilot. In the event that more than one claimed the same victory, they resolved it in a variety of methods. In some cases it went to the person with the lower score, others drew cards, or by some other method not currently known.

VBR,

Al Lowe
2-bit amateur aviation historian and/or enthusiast, and wannabe history teacher.

13 December 1998, 04:46 PM

Al,

I think he was referring to Col. Billy Mitchell, who ran the USAS at the time.

Regards,

MDD

Billy_Bishop · 13 December 1998, 07:33 PM

That's what I had in mind too, but I was gonna wait and see what he said.

VBR,

Al Lowe
You know who.

13 December 1998, 08:20 PM

Dear Al,

Sorry I haven't replied. On Sundays I sweat NFL games at the Mirage Sports Book. You'll be happy to know that I went 8-0, hit 5 four team round robins, 3 four team parlays, and a 10 team teaser. I'd E-Mail you the tickets for proof but I lost them somewhere between the strip and Pronville. I'm sure you believe me. There's a little

Billy Bishop in all of us I guess.

You've certainly convinced me that the Nachrictenblatt is either incomplete or self serving to it's own.

Thanks for straightening me out about Cobble.

Maybe you can help me out? As you can tell
by my monniker, I'm a fan of the Fokker Triplane. While glancing thru "Above the Trences" I couldn't help but notice that Capt.
Norman McMillan of 45 SQ was credited with
two OOC victories over DR1's on Sept 11, 1917
yet the Nacht reports no triplane losses! Could you possibly tell me the serial numbers of the planes involved and let me know if there were any misplaced German pilots layed out in any Allied hangars at that time. I'd like to know just for my own personal records. Or could he have waved at

Werner Voss once or twice?

I'm just a poor sheep led astray so as always,
I'll bow to your guidance.

Humbly yours,

FokkDR1