About Billy Bishop

K u K airforce= Kiaseriche und Konigliche or the Imperial and Royal Airforce of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy. It eould seem that they credited vicories in a manner somewhat similar to the Allied method.

Yep! I meant Billy Mitchell. Alas! The hair grows gray the eyes dim the brain is often befuddled and the typing is abominable.

Regards to all. By the way, what a super forum this is.

[Billy_Bishop]

I'll see what I can find out, and let you know.

[Billy_Bishop]

The KuK, I don't know about. You could always start your own thread and ask about it.

Here's a hint, though, when you start a thread, under "Your e-mail" put none, that way you won't get a message from the forum every time someone responds to the thread, unless of course you want it.

VBR,

Al Lowe

Dear Al,

While you're looking, please help me out with
certain events of July 6, 1917. Collishaw claimed a Six-pack" that day including 5 DV's in a 5 min period over Menin at @ 1100.
The Grub Street boys ( who most probably depend upon the self-serving Nacht for their info) report three casualties for the day. First was MvR. I think its generally granted that a Fe2b
did the damage here. Stimmel of Jasta 32 who is credited to Matton of N48 and very far away. Denkhaus of good ole Jasta 7 could be a possibility! Thoughts?
Speaking of Woodbridge in the Fe2b, wasn't he credited with 5 "victories" that day. Maybe I can help you out! Maybe he got credit for MvR.
#2 was Brauneck following MvR down, #3 was
Niederhoff following MvR down, #4 was Niederhoff who was mistaken for Brauneck following MvR down, #5 was Brauneck mistaken for Niederhoff following MvR down.
Now that we've cleared that up, 5 victories over
the Bloody Huns most productive Jasta including 3 aces with (at that time) @ 70 kills
between them should be Victorai Cross material
no? Bishop got his for much less! 11 confirmed
kills by two RFC and RNAS pilots that day. 3
German casualties. I'll give you six. Think there were any other Allied claims that day?
I'm almost there Al, I'm this close to saying you win. More on Fonck's six pack on May 9,1918 tomorrow.

VBR,

FokkDR1

Maybe I'll learn to type and format my threads by then as well!

[Billy_Bishop]

I thought I posted a message regarding MacMillan's claims but it must have gotten lost somewhere.

Regarding MacMillan, If you'll read the little bio that's in ATT, you'll see that the GOGS(Gods Of Grub Street) have determined that his two OOC claims were not two different Dr. I's, but both the same Dr. I. And that in either case, it wasn't shot down, but simply evading his fire with erractic maneauvers.

The GOGS have also speculated that it was most likely Voss flying the prototype Dr.I that MacMillan ran into and thought he'd shot down twice.

Regarding Collishaw's "6-pack", in the notes section, the GOGS state that while the RNAS credited him with 6 OOC, the RFC Communique noted 1 OOC, and 5 APPARENTLY OOC.

Regarding Fonck, as I've said previously, I don't know much about the man, and I have even fewer resources on him. So I'm not really in a position to judge his claims.

Regarding acts of bravery by others, it's up to their commanding officer to recommend them for a medal. I have no idea, if they did claim that many down in one day, why their CO didn't recommend them for something. Perhaps he did and it was denied for some reason. Bishop shot down 5 in one day, and he wasn't recommended for a second VC, not even another DSO, but a DFC is what he got.

Perhaps shooting down 3 is less than 5, but where did these 5 take place? Over the trenches?? Besides getting 3 aircraft, Bishop attacked an aerodrome that was at least 12 miles behind the lines.

As far as this "Nacht" report, I don't know that it is necessarily self-serving. But other reports that it was compiled from could be. Such as the diary of Jasta 20. Why is there a gap from May 27, 1917 to July 11, 1917? And what happened to three of their pilots, Baurose, Geissler and Heiss?? Where did they go, and why was no mention made of it??? According to Turnuss(or Tornhaus) "there was nothing of worth there for the period in question." SOMETHING must have happened for 3 pilots to apparently disappear without a trace!! Anyone have ANY idea what happened to these three????

VBR,

Al Lowe
2-bit amateur aviation historian and/or enthusiast

[Billy_Bishop]

No challengers?? Ok. I can accept victory graciously....NOT!! NEENER, NEENER, NEENER!!

VBR,

Al Lowe
2-bit amateur aviation historian and/or enthusiast
AND 42 year old spoiled brat going on 10.

You've got to be kidding? You use an example of two months of missing Jasta records as a
possibility to explain 10 fraudulent Allied claims
and you claim victory. You name three pilots as examples and all three survived the war. You
Win? A victory by Billy Bishop standards but by
any free thinking forum member your victory would be UNCONFIRMED!

You haven't not one iota of evidence to support any of the bad claims I brought to your attention.
You just come up with another missing Jasta record. Anybody can answer a question with a question. Where's the beef?

Al, I'm on your tail and you can't shake me. I see your head turning back with fear in your eyes. Against my better judgement, I'm going to pretend your pounding on the breech of your
Lewis trying to clear a jam. I'm going to spare you this time so you can return to base and get more ammunition. Don't come back unless your ready. I wont spare you a second time!

Start a brand new thread in the Forum if you dare and let our peers be the judge! If you insist on claiming victory, walk the walk, you certainly talk the talk.

Eagerly waiting your reply,

FokkDR1

P.S. You're welcome (that I spared you)

[Billy_Bishop]

FokkDrI,

I win, no one can explain the absence of the 3 missing pilots in the Turnuss records. And THESE are the records that Cowan with the cooperation of Ed Ferko claimed proved Bishop was a fraud.

These records have a gap. During that gap these three pilots disappear, and there's no explaination. And I don't use it to confirm 10 claims. I don't use it to confirm ANY claims.

From my point of view the claims have already been confirmed OFFICIALLY by the RFC/RAF. That is a fact.

As far as the claims made by Collishaw, or anyone else, as I said before, I no very little to nothing of them. I haven't studied them, read much about them, nor am I really very interested in them. So what's your point?

I'm not on the RAF victory claims board. It's not my job to confirm or deny victory claims.

As far as Collishaw's "6-pack" did you even READ my responses?? It doesn't look like you did.

Same for Fonck. Same for the guy who apparently tackled Voss in the prototype Fokker Dr. I.

I'm not championing the cause of every Tom, Dick and Henri in the Entente Air Forces. None of the others have been called a liar and a Fraud in public the way Bishop has.

I will repeat myself in case you didn't hear me the first time.

I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE OTHER PILOTS!!!!!!!

VBR,

Al Lowe
2-bit amateur aviation historian and/or enthusiast

p.s. What jam???

p.p.s. That wasn't fear, that was me moving.

p.p.p.s. As for Fear, I'm not the one using a "nom de guerre" with NO email address.

p.p.p.p.s. Scott, if this fits your definition of "forum wars" I aplogize, but what else could I do?