Frank Luke flies!

Greetings All,
The pre-production work is at full steam now. Controversy over the 21 "confirmed" victories has been discussed and seems to hold up according to a comparison of combat reports and documents. The funny thing is the disagreement amongst supposed "official" sources. The original War Department list (same one pulled by Norman Hall for the writing of his book) reflects 21 victories, listing the two planes downed at Murvaux in an Addendum. Study 133 hacks the tally down significantly by assigning kills & partial credits to Wehner.(133 is not concrete however) Records from Luke AFB's historian reflect 21. Hartney's accounts reflect 21!(Most weight is being given here, after all, the man was in the best position to know.) The film will stay true to the 21 figure. However, for you sticklers out there(Reinout, Richard,...) mention will be made in the "afterword" as to the flaming controversy on the first victory and possible partial credits of kills to Wehner. But this is still under discussion. Chances are there will be just "old stars & stripes waving" and a solid 21 victories statement. Its up to the "big guns" now, I'm a small roller in the halls just trying to earn my stripes still. Does anyone have any strong opinions on this matter?
We have one final "revision meeting" after the Turkey holidays before the final draft goes to the photography/planning team. The 21 figure ain't budging folks but "ending acknowledgements" can still be made. Don't get mad at me if you disagree and think it should be 18 or 19, its out of my hands.
Respectfully, Mutley

[Billy_Bishop]

I wouldn't mention anything about partial credits, since the USAS didn't use partial credits then.

If you have proof of 21, stick with 21. No sense in confusing the public with changing scoring rules.

If you want to make a comment about USAFHS 133, just say something like,

"Decades later(or put the date the report was published), the USAF, using modern scoring criteria, downgraded Luke's score to ??.?? due to shared victories. However, according to the rules of the day, his score remains 21."

That's what I'd do.

Of course, the above is simply my humble opinion.

VBR,

Al Lowe

In dispute is the "official score" of Frank Luke. I agree that Hartney's accounts should carry the greatest weight. If the R&D boys believe Luke officially scored 21 victories, they didn't read Hartney's book.

In "Up and At 'Em" published in 1940, Hartney lists Luke with 18 victories in his list of "Official Victories of the 1st Pursuit Group."

The first unconfirmed victory was shot down by Luke as it pursued Hartney's SPAD on 16 August 1918. This victory was based on verbal statements made to Hartney by Luke when he returned to the aerodrome at Coincy. According Hartney:

"From what he told me, the way he described it and from the fact that I was there, I believed then, and always will believe, that he did shoot a German plane off my tail. However, although I used every resource I could muster, both before and after the Armistice, in trying to get him a confirmation, that victory is unconfirmed to this day."

Luke learned his lesson on that one. He began carrying confirmation slips for witnesses. After flaming a balloon on 12 Sep 1918 (his first confirmed victory), he landed nearby and had 2 American officers sign his slips of paper. When he returned to the aerodrome, he submitted them with his combat report.

His second and third unconfirmed victories were scored on 29 September 1918. He apparantly downed two EA before flaming three balloons although, oddly enough, the Murvaux affidavit makes no mention of them. Again, according to Hartney:

Frank Luke never did get confirmation for the two machines which he shot down just before he broke off and attacked and burned up the three balloons."

We may not agree on his "official score" but it won't stop me from buying a ticket to the movie.

[stephen]

The citizens of Murveaux were blinded by a ridge, an extension of the Cote St. Germain, which borders the north edge of the town and wraps all the way around to the east, then turns slightly south. All the above actions took place at low level, beyond the ridge, and therefore, it is illogical to expect the citizens of Murveaux to have commented in their affidavit on the 2 planes Luke downed prior to the balloon action.

Thank you for the info Stephen. I found it odd that the Murvaux affidavit, dated 15 January 1919, neglected to mention the two planes while the American Red Cross letter from Capt. M.C. Cooper to Capt. C.P. Williamson, dated 7 January 1919, states "The village people of Murvaux told Capt. McCormick that this aviator shot down three German balloons and two German planes, then descended low over the ground and killed eleven Germans with either hand bombs or machine gun bullets." The Graves Registration Officer, Capt. Chester Staten, also indicated the inhabitants of the village of Murvaux reported "this man had brought down three German balloons, two German planes and dropped hand bombs killing eleven soldiers and wounding a number of others."

One other minor detail that continues to puzzle me is whether Luke was armed with a semi-automatic pistol or a revolver.

The Knit Picker

[Richard_Schrader]

Mutley;
The best of luck on your project.

[Barrett]

Mutley, et al. Consult a copy of The Jasta Pilots by Franks & Co., published by Grub Street. There's an appendix with a chronological listing of jagdflieger KIA, WIA, POW, etc. If there are listings for 29 Sep, it shouldn't be hard to determind where they were based and therefore if any of them may have been Luke's victims.
Al got it right regarding Study 133: it's a reassessment of USAS victory credits using the WW II system of fractions for shared victories. By that system, Wehner wasn't an ace.
To repeat a previous thread: years ago I heard former 27th PS enlisted men say that Luke carried a 1911 autopistol and shot it very well.

[stephen]

A possible explanation of the knowledge of the citizens of Murveaux, who were unlikely to have been able to see the combat: Their statements were taken nearly 4 months after the fact, plenty of time for them to have been in contact with their neighbors in surrounding villages who may have corroborated the story, in addition to any US soldiers working in that area who might also have known of the air fight. An incident of this sort in a village of this size would undoubtedly have been the "talk of the town." You can't possibly imagine what a tiny town Murveaux is until you get there.

Total speculation, but a logical explanation if you want to believe it.

Sounds logical Stephen. Wonder why the affidavit makes no mention of the 2 planes Luke was reported to have shot down?

The Jasta War Chronology lists three losses and 30 victories for 29 September 1918.[*]Ltn Fritz Hoffmann of Kek B was killed in action W of Cambrai by 64 Squadron[*] Obltn Hans-Eberhard Gandert of Jasta 51 was wounded in action and taken prisoner during a balloon attack[*] Ltn Gerold Tschentschel of Jasta 72 was wounded in action

Well, Kek B would have been a 2 seater, correct?

So the last two mentioned by Manfred might be connected to Lukes last flight.
Is there any information available concerning the location of those two jastas on the date in question?