11-11-1918

Remember.

The waste of men. Sure, for Germany the war was lost, and all the fallen sons, brothers, fathers... were dead without a good result. No German could size the end of War.

But the Allied (France, UK, USA) wasted the lifes of their men - because the were not willing, to make a peace, that made peace. The so-called Versailles-peace-treaty, was no peace treaty, but an armistic for 21 years - or (more direct) a declaration of war against Germany.

So the Allied soldiers had died without sense.

Moritz, I wonder how the Kaiser would have administered to the rule of Europe had the shoe been on the other foot?

[Vigilant]

That's the tragedy of war. The waste. What can you say?
(But I fail to see how German soldiers died for a more worthwhile reason than those of the Allied powers IMHO)

Moritz,
War exacts a horrible upon humanity but don't disgrace the memory of these brave men by belittling or disparaging their sacrifice. What have you done for freedom lately?

Tragedy...futility...waste etcetera.You guys sound suprised.The Great War is history and history is full of that kind of stuff.Are you suggesting there is another way-can we have wars full of goodness and peace settlements both wise and farseeing?

[Vigilant]

Moritz, having re-read your post more carefully I sort of agree actually. There are 2 ways you can look at the war's "futility" or achievements (maybe more):

(a) Continental Europe was not dominated by Germany and so liberal democracy (as opposed to arbitrary monarchal rule) was upheld.
Problems with this: Russia was worse as a result of the war; Italy got a dictator.

(B) The Versailles Treaty ensured a balance of power in Europe and while it was upheld there could never again be a threat to the above values. Peace in our time.
Problems: Communist Russia would have become a threat eventually.

To the limited extent that (a) was achieved, the Allied dead did not die for nothing. And to the less limited extent (B) was achieved ditto.

However the weak politicians of the inter-war years threw away (B) -- thus rendering WWI a lot more futile than it looked in 1919. I am not saying any revision of Versailles would have been wrong, but a line should have been drawn at the military clauses. This need not have 'crippled Germany's dignity' etc. Japan for example seems to manage pretty well as a nation without a 'proper' army. The unbearable humiliation has not spawned another Hitler.

[Richard_Schrader]

Like it or not, the history of man is the history of war. I don't think that is going to change no matter how enlightened we become.

Too many assumptions.To discuss Versialles and the 'waste'of lives we must at least agree what is 'good' in history.The problem is bad things sometimes result in good things.For those of you who think communism is a bad thing then both world wars were good things because they led directly
to a cold war in which Soviet communism collapsed ( not to say there could not be a resurgence).To go a little further back 40,000 were executed in France in the revolution,several millions more died in the resulting Napoleonic wars and more again in the Liberal revolutions of the 19C. Now this gave us liberal democracy in some places so were all those deaths 'good' ones? My own view is it is a waste of time trying to make judgements of good and bad in history.