The Aerodrome Home Page
Aces of WWI
Aircraft of WWI
Books and Film
The Aerodrome Forum
Sign the Guestbook
Help
Links to Other Sites
Medals and Decorations
The Aerodrome News
Search The Aerodrome
Today in History
The Aerodrome Forum


Go Back   The Aerodrome Forum > Archives > 1998


1998 Closed threads from 1998 (read only)


Welcome to The Aerodrome Forum, an online community where you can discuss WWI aviation with thousands of other members from around the world. To gain full access to the Forum you must register for a free account. As a registered member you will be able to:
  • Post messages and search the Forum

  • Privately communicate with other members

  • Participate in live chat sessions other members

  • View images by talented aviation artists in our Gallery

  • Buy, sell or trade items in our Classified Ads
All this and much more is available to you absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today! If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 22 October 1998, 04:44 AM   #11 (permalink)
Michael Skeet
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Shooter:
I believe that PBI during WWI shot at *any* low-flying aircraft, without reference to silhouettes, markings, attitude, time of day, phase of the moon, etc. etc. It's true that national markings were originally introduced in an effort to keep the ground-pounders from firing on their own, but on all the evidence this didn't work.
 
Old 22 October 1998, 07:24 AM   #12 (permalink)
Forum Ace
 
mike_baram's Avatar
Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Kyle, TX
Posts: 2,066
 
I'm not too sure that ground fire was a reason for introducing national markings on aircraft....it's been an accepted rule of warfare that ships must fly their nations flag when entering combat, so it was natural to extend that rule to aircraft as national markings.
I'm trying to imagine recognizing an insignia on an airplane 500 meters away...that's nearly 1/3 mile. I know my eyes ain't what they used to be, but I could never see a sign that small that clearly over that distance. Imagine what a soldier would see at a plane coming at an angle, 500 meters away at a fairly low altitude. All he'd see is an approaching plane. If it's a head on approach, even the silhouette doesn't matter, and the markings wouldn't be discernible until the aircraft were a lot closer, or directly overhead. Even at 90mph, there's only a small window of time for making an indentification and getting off an accurate shot. Of course, as the plane passed, you could be shooting at its tail for as long as he's in range.
__________________
In dismissing PETA's lawsuit against Sea World, US district judge Jeffrey Miller has ruled that whales are not people.

Obviously, the judge has never shopped at K-Mart.




mike_baram is offline  
Old 22 October 1998, 03:03 PM   #13 (permalink)
Forum Ace
 
Vigilant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Devon
Posts: 979
 
Ground fire was, I think, the original motivation for applying national markings -- or *large* national markings anyway. In 1914 RFC aircraft had no markings (or small flags?) on their wings. 1st hand accounts of August/Sept.'14 from pilots frequently mention the indiscriminate fire from both sides. In response big Union Jacks were painted on, but the problem persisted since they could be confused with the German cross. As a result the more distinctive roundel was adopted in immitation of French practice. I agree though, that if you were getting shot up on the ground presumably all you would see initially would be the front of the plane in question. And after it's straffed you, you *know* it's hostile anyhow!

Maybe if you were fortunate enough not to be the intended target, but were nearby, you could make out markings and have a crack at him before he had a crack at your mates?
__________________
Fly a microlight - http://www.bmaa.org
Vigilant is offline  
Old 22 October 1998, 05:18 PM   #14 (permalink)
Senior Gunfighter
 
Shooter's Avatar
Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Jacksonville, NC
 
Mike:

Barrett said in an earlier thread that NM's ARE required by international conventions. Not certain if these rules were in effect before 1918, but they certainly are today. The rules do not say how visable the markings need to be, hence we have the subdued makings currently in use by all US armed forces...they are there, but hard to pick up even at close range. A typical case of adhering to the letter of the law.
__________________
In God we trust, everyone else keep your hands where I can see them!
Only the hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
There is no second-place award for a gunfight. Never bring a knife.
Shooter is offline  
Old 22 October 1998, 07:36 PM   #15 (permalink)
Forum Ace
 
mike_baram's Avatar
Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Kyle, TX
Posts: 2,066
 
Shooter,
Considering the fact that modern air combat takes place over a space of miles, and instruments, rather than humans, do the detection, maneuvering, and firing, the identifying markings are only lip service to international law.
Mike
__________________
In dismissing PETA's lawsuit against Sea World, US district judge Jeffrey Miller has ruled that whales are not people.

Obviously, the judge has never shopped at K-Mart.




mike_baram is offline  
Old 23 October 1998, 03:11 AM   #16 (permalink)
Michael Skeet
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
I can't speak to French or German practise, but the history of British national markings strongly supports the supposition that they were introduced as a means of identifying aircraft to troops on the ground.

When the RFC crossed to France in 1914, its machines bore no markings other than serial numbers. When the first markings were introduced (Union Jacks, as was mentioned earlier), these were painted first on the undersurfaces of the wings, then on the sides. As late as early 1915 there are photos of RFC machines (I'm thinking of a Bristol Scout D in particular) with no markings at all on the upper surfaces.
 
Old 23 October 1998, 04:06 AM   #17 (permalink)
Forum Ace of Aces
 
rammjaeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
Posts: 4,442
 
It seems to be common in English language to call this kind of cross "Maltese Cross". The name "Iron Cross" for this German cross is more precise even if the shape looks like the famous "Maltese Cross". I think the designer Schinkel took over this shape during the creation of the Iron Cross in 1813 or so (Freedom Wars against Napoleon).
__________________
My homepage:
http://www.flugplatzgeschichte-grossenhain.de.tl/
rammjaeger is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Tags
demise, maltese, cross



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
German Cross (curved Maltese cross) formula? Pat Daily Models 8 1 April 2006 09:28 AM
Demise of the Albatros Shredward Aircraft 4 27 December 2005 05:11 PM
Wisseman's demise Count_Holck People 2 23 September 2005 10:19 AM
German Maltese Cross Markings 1998328is Art 2 31 May 2005 07:33 AM
Balkenkreuz or Maltese on Balloons? Bob_D Other WWI Aviation 4 24 March 2004 03:25 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.5.1 PL1
Copyright ©1997 - 2012 The Aerodrome