von Scheich's SPAD

I remember reading a tale about Eduard von Schleich painting German crosses on a captured SPAD and taking it out to look for a fight. Apparently he managed to join a French escadrille and flew with them as one of the squadron until they were greeted by German AA fire. At this point, von Schleich attacked and destroyed at least one of the French fighters. It took him quite awhile to get back to his squadron. Before he arrived word had been received that a SPAD was seen to crash and his squadron assumed it was he who had gone down. I believe this story was in the Quentin Reynolds book They Fought for the Sky -- Ira, help me out if you remember. At any rate, the author goes on to say that upon his return to his Jasta, von Scheich received a communique from von Richthofen forbidding this sort of activity with an order never to do it again. My question is:
What does this action have to do with von Richthofen? von Schleich's Jasta was not a part of JG1 so it did not come under the Baron's command. If this action put von Schleich in a bad position with his superiors, then why was he later given command of JG4? Is this an example of an incident which actually occurred but to which authors who had something against a certain pilot added 'details' at a later date?

[Richard_Schrader]

Your story is partly true. Von Scheich did fly a Spad that
had been brought down intact behind German lines. He joined a French flight until they saw the black crosses on his Spad. He had a real time of it for awhile and was lucky to get back to his airfield. I don't think he shot down a Spad in the melee.
Earlier in his career von Scheich got hold of a Nieport 17
which he painted with crosses. Higher headquarters foung out about it before he could fly it, and took it away. Which
is what they did again after the Spad fight. Von Richthofen had nothing to do with it.
Quentin Reynolds was a very talented writer, but was a confirmed German hated who picked on von Richthofen every chance he got. There are many stories in "They Fought for the Skies" that you just can't take for fact.

[Ira_Silverman]

Mark:

The story does indeed come from "They Fought from the Sky." The point Reynolds was trying to make was more about MvR than anything else. He portrays MvR as being a serious leader who touted teamwork as the key to success in air combat. According to Reynolds, MvR felt von Schleich's action was a solo prank, and frowned on such individual performances unless they were his own.

Best Regards,

Ira

[Ira_Silverman]

Richard:

While Quentin Reynolds may have had prejudices, I would hardly characterize him as a "German Hater." One only has to read what he wrote about Boelcke and Voss to see what admiration he had for those two individuals.

Regards,

Ira

Wasn't there a German ace who scored one of his victories in a captured Camel?

[Reinout]

Aren't you referring to Otto Kissenberth? The ace who flew and crashed in a Camel. The crash wounded him so severely that he never flew in the war again. I shall look it up this weekend. Oh, Von Schleich did score a victory over the Spads he had been flying with. I have the story in a book first published in 1932. A few years ago it was reprinted after being edited by Norman, Franks and Bailey. I shall have to look that up too.
There were many men who flew enemy machines, before these kites were relegated to training schools. Each pilot wanted to fly in one; it would be the same on the Allied side. Most pilots would not take it into combat though but according to the story Von Schleich was in a jolly mood that day.

You'll hear more from me next week.

Kind regards,

Reinout

[Reinout]

Von Schleich did score a victory. He joined up with five Spads but while crossing the lines he left them because the German AAA could not fire whilst Eduard was flying with the French. The French then noticed the absence of the sixth Spad and saw the Maltese crosses on the escaping Spad. They went after him. Schleich figured they were fair game now and mixed it up, shooting one down. This was noted as his twentieth victory. O'Connor gives 21 September 1917 as the date of his 20th victory. September was his best month of the war with over 10 victories. The story also mentions that his staffels bag had been 6 the day before. September 1917 was his staffels best month too. Thom scored 11, Schleich over 10 (going from memory I believe it was 17) and Thuy also almost reached ten victories. There were other succesful pilots too. Scoring 6 victories in a day is a special event. September 1917 was filled with special events for Schleichs staffel. Besides, it is certain he scored his 20th kill that month.

As usual the only thing that would be considered definite proof is a combat report....

But until one surfaces, I for one believe Eduard Ritter von Schleich scored his 20th kill whilst flying a Franch Spad.

Kind regards,

Reinout

Richard mentioned German high command forbidding the use of a capture Nieuport 17. I find this hard to believe, since the Germans were so enamoured of the 17 that they actually copied it. Until the Albatros fighters proved their overall superiority to the Nieuport, the Germans were planning to use a Pfalz-built Nieuport clone. I believe I even have a colour profile of a Nie.17 in German colours.

[Reinout]

Otto Kissenberth did fly a Camel, which is fairly well known. He crashed in one on May 29th 1918. Neal O'Connor states in his work (Aviation Awards of Imperial Germany and the Men who earned them. Volume IV, the kingdom of Wurttemberg, page 131) that Kissenberth was returning from a patrol. Clearly, this indicates an offensive use of captured aircraft by some German individuals. In the Von Schleich story there is a notion saying that an offical report henceforth forbade the use of Allied aircraft for offensive purposes. Von Schleichs exploits with the Spad occurred in September 1917 (that can be made up by some remarks in the story, which itself does not give a date), while Kissenberths crash happened during the spring of 1918. Some possibilities arise:
-the prohibition was revoked
-the prohibition never took place in the first place
-Kissenberth (and who knows how many other pilots) acted on his own and had the influence necessary to pull off a trick like this

Your votes, please?

P.S.: the version of the story I used is in this book: "German War Birds" by "Vigilant" with a new introduction by Norman Franks. (Greenhill Books, London 1994)
"Vigilant" was the pen-name of Claud W.Sykes
The 1931 text has not been changed. Franks has merely added a new introduction and some tables.

Kind regards,

Reinout

[Richard_Schrader]

Mike;
I don't remember the reason why the High Command took
vonScheich's Nieport, but I think I read it in "Eagles of the Black Cross.