Rene Fonck's life after the war

[mike_baram]

A lot depends on what form the collaboration took. If it were a question of war crimes....(e.g. informing on resistance members, transporting French Jews to the camps, or actually serving in the German army) then it's certain that Fonck would have been tried. Entertaining Germans (as Chevalier did), or just doing business with them would probably result in ostracization....not necessarily with incarceration or physical punishment. A lot had to do with the degree of "damage" resulting from the collaboration.

[Barrett]

Dog-gone: I was all set to quote Ayn Rand and then realized that source is in my "winter quarters." So much for bodacious...

I'm not well enough read on Hoffer to know the context in which he cited ultra-nationalists as the most usual traitors. However, the original traitors in France in 1939-40 were commies and socialpukes--because Nazi Germany was allied with Soviet Russia! That changed, of course, after June 1941.

In this country, the prominent traitors in my lifetime have been commies/leftists, from the Rosenbergs to Fonda. However, it's easy to get mired in perspectives and definition. If the Freiwilligen SS recruited from, say, Vichy France were traitors, then to whom were they treasonous? They served the "legitimate" government of their nation.

A kid I knew all my life was shot down in his Huey and captured during Tet 68. He fit the constitutional and UCMJ definition of a traitor--didin't even want to leave Hanoi when it was over--but was never prosecuted. In fact, he retired as a US government employee. Treason is a very selectively-enforced offense.

By and large, the older I get, the more I'm convinced that as long as humans choose to organize themselves into nation states, such confusion and conflict is unavoidable. The ultimate statement on the subject came from no less an authority than Mel Brooks in "The History of the World, Part I" when he voiced the original national anthem: "Hooray for Cave 76 and to hell with all the rest!"

[Reinout]

Dear all,

I see that this has become a discussion on morals, and that's fine.
Melinda, I think you are right about the substitution for hatred. It has been going on since the Agrarian Revolution! The best example does not need mentioning, you all know what I mean...

Petain was the head of state of Vichy France. In that position he became a figurehead for collaboration in the Allied world. The trial sentenced him to death, but De Gaulle stepped in and changed it to a life-sentence. that is where his herostatus saved Petain.
If Fonck did not serve in the military and he didn't rat on people, than he probably did no more than the average Frenchman, living his life best he could under the circumstances. Of course this is mere speculation. If someone had a biography or a monography, that would help.
The only thing I read that explains why Fonck became an outcast is his open friendship with Goering between WWI and WWII. Maybe he was friends with Udet to (I've seen a picture of them together in the nineteen-twenties), but that would not be enough for a condemnation, right?

The French and the Germans have a strange and sometimes fairly hostile relationship. It probably started in 1805 or if you really want to drag it further into history, 1608.
I remember the French demanding that Kaiser Wilhelm II of Prussia be handed over to them at the end of WWI. Why? Because they wanted to drag him around Paris as warbooty, to be kicked and beaten till death set in! This was something the French aired openly! After WWII the French probably experienced an equal kind of mood that voiced its anger towards those under SUSPICION of collaboration. Having been friends with a man who was so high in the nazi-hierarchy might have been enough reason to be shunned, not to be tried.

Kind regards,

Reinout

[stephen]

Traitor, wanted to stay in Hanoi, became a public official. Was his name Bill?

Oops. I guess he was in England.

[Boom]

Ah-ha. So von Tillman, our paths cross. Vait til der andern discofer how much ve know.

With history written by the victors, what we call collaborators would be heroes if Germany had won.

Brits keep all sorts of stuff classified. My Second WW researches turned up brutal treatment of Luftwaffe POWs after the war in "Stalag 13", still very hush-hush.

cheers.

[Richard_Schrader]

Do not forget the thousands of German Pows who died in
Alled controlled prison camps along the Rhine.

[Vigilant]

If Rene had been pally with the Germans that need not have very much affected his post-war life. Francois Mitterand did the same and he became president of the country! My impression is that 'collaboration' was so wide-spread that only the worse cases were dealt with after the war. It was a period the French were glad to forget. (Whereas the British have never stopped talking about it since!)

[Barrett]

Boom und Freunde: I am Sviss; I haff alvays been Sviss und ich habe keine familia in der alte Kountry...

Forum guys and gals: I'm pleased & proud to introduce (a few items prior to this) my good bud and collaborator (only in a literary sense!) who goes by the tactical callsign "Boom." A no-kidding Tailhooker and Vigilante pilot who spent his youth humiliating Phantom drivers, bombing the heathen commie in A-4s, and "waving" from the LSO platform. One of these days we're going to finish our epic, "Duel Over Douai." Get your orders in now!

Boom: see you in Reno, pard.

Not nice, Stephen. I am not EVEN equipped to be a Jane Fonda, nor am I a public official.
When it comes to French traitors, I got no dog in that fight! But my natural sentiments go with idealists, on both sides of the line. Still, we all are responsible for our actions, sooner or later.
Be NICE, dude!

Bill

[Reinout]

About the German PoWs after WWII, I have an excellent example.
Hauptmann Georg-Peter Eder is known as one of the most chivalrous pilots of the war, often allowing crews to bail out before he finished the kill. Especially bombercrews were glad to see his number which was well known (for as far as bombercrews could be happy to see German fighters) on the Western Front. He once gave a fighter some time for its pilot to bail out. Instead the fighter (piloted by Polish pilot Jean Zumbach) turned and shot Eder down. Perhaps Eder was shot down by Zumbach again later in the war in similar conditions. They had a good laugh about it when they met after the war and compared experiences: they found out they weren't strangers anymore! He was shot down a good 14 times, sometimes due to his chivalrous nature and was wounded several times. He scored 78 victories and was awarded the Eichenlaub zum Ritterkreuz. A bit low considering he shot down 36 four-engined bombers. He and Egon Mayer pioneered the dreaded (by German fighters and Allied bombers) method of the Twelve o'cock high attack. He served in renowned units like JG2 Richthofen and JG26 Schlageter. In the end he also served with JG7 Nowotny and he got 12 confirmed kills in an Me262, sharing his second rank with Hermann Buchner and Erich Rudorffer. He claimed 36 but most were obviously not confirmed because of the breakdown of the administrative system and because the wrecks often fell on Allied territory. After the war his career warranted intensive questioning by the Allies. In a British war camp he was beaten to a nervous breakdown and, being judged useless in his condition was sent back to Germany where he lived until his death in 1986.
Is that the way to treat a noble warrior who had always put his respect for life and his adversaries first in a chivalrous manner? I dare to disagree....

This was just a short venture into the (seemingly endless) realm of WWII aviation. I now it doesn't really belong here, but I saw the replies and thought it wasn't so far off.

Keep writing.

Kind regards,

Reinout