Percentage of Two-Seaters to Single Seaters on MvR's Tally

[Reinout]

Germans actually were commendable administrators. In the final stages of the war the constant relocating of units eventually heralded the breakdown of the adminstrative system. It took weeks or months for award proposals to be answered to, victories were sometimes lost in the papermill. Even though a wreck was counted in the backyard. Otto Schmidt, Josef Jacobs and numerous other aces as well as lesser-scoring pilots claimed more planes than could be confirmed in these final days. The standards of confirmation hadn't changed: it was the rate with which it happened. It became increasingly difficult to get a claim confirmed. A wreck that was on German territory could be on Allied territory within one or two days. The system just could not keep up with it anymore and it resulted in (probably - I have no concrete proof) a lot of victories remaining unconfirmed. If you would check the last three months of the war in all the Jasta diaries you'd probably find victories that were verified by evidence but not by official confirmation. They were not counted in the victory total for a person, but they were recorded as destroyed.
The same thing happened to the administrative system during WWII. In 1945 the jets commanded the skies (when they managed to get airborne) but many pilots did not get their claims confirmed. Two reasons: the breakdown of the administrative system and the jet war not allowing kills to be followed down. Crude rockets were effective against bombers but it was almost impossible to discern who launched the rocket in the melee. Georg-Peter Eder claimed 36, 12 were confirmed. There were other men who outscored their confirmed jet-kills by a factor of at least 1 (Baer I believe).

Actually it is a bit of a repeat of WWI.

Kind regards.

Reinout

I think the Pilots thought about how good they were when compared to their adversaries and peers all the time. You can't remove ego and competitive spirit from this type of warfare. The # of kills was what the high command looked at. Granted the high command didn't take into consideration the proportions of fighters to observational aircraft or bombers but they did look at the totals. And pilots like Voss really had a drive to get the top score. Otherwise he wouldn't be landing next to victims to collect evidence and doing so under the fire of brits a couple of hundred yuards away (and waving at them joyfully too). They really wanted those medals and the status of "Freiherr von". They wanted the respect of Willy II, their jastas, and their countrymen and countrywomen. They wanted their pictures on postcards distributed to thousands. Sure it was their job but most didn't volunteer for the job out of just duty. I don't see the harm in speculating who was really the best pilot, marksman, or strategist in the air. It's fun to speculate. I'm sure pilots speculated all the time.

[Billy_Bishop]

I don't see the harm in speculating who was the best either. As long as we don't trash someone else's memory and reputation at the same time.

Paul Cowan did more than enough damage to Bishop's record. And Mr. Cowan even had things screwed up!!

And while I pointed out Bishop's single-seat numbers to 2-seater kills, my intention was not to say "he's the best". Even though that is MY opinion. Actually, I think they were all "THE BEST". Not only for what they did in the air, but in just having the courage to get into those airplanes made of wood and cloth. To climb into the sky, with no oxygen, going above 10,000 feet on a regular basis, putting up with castor oil fumes, causing problems related to that particular "medicine".

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't think I could have done what they did. I'd like to think I could, but in all honesty, I have to admit, that I doubt it very much.

VBR

Al Lowe 'Honourary Canadian Citizen'
"On the edge of destiny, you must test your strength. "
-- Billy Bishop

Here here. Those guys had the biggest cajones of all times. It was an untried and untested science for the most part as well. They were constantly having to deal with technical malfuntions (loss of wings, shooting off own propeller, too much torque, engine failure) not to mention the threat of being shot, burned to death and then smashing into the ground at high speeds (the latter being the best of the three). They were all beyond brave and courageous. Could I have done it? Well it just might be better than going over the top in the first wave of the battle of the Somme. Or sleeping 30 feet underground with 13 other lice ridden stinky men or being shelled all night until your just about insane. If given the choice I'd take the air service. Even if I wasn't issued a parachute. Granted I'd be scared as hell. Then I'd be shot down because my eyesight is really not too good. Too much staring at computer screens.

Air flight had just been invented, and suddenly this was a viable form of combat. It's like, strap a lawnmower engine and a chair to a box-kite, and bring along a gun in case you find another box kite. It was still a ballancing act to keep a heavier-than-air machine aloft, let alone ward off attackers. The slower speeds, tighter turning radius and closer range of attack of the WWI air battles fascinates me more than any others thereafter. They seem to be more Mano a Mano.

RK

"We were off to fight the Hun,
And it looked like lots of fun
Somehow it didn't seem like war at all."
-- Billy Bishop Goes To War

If you read what von Richthofen says in his book available at this site, you will see he feels that a two-seater which can easily return fire is more of a threat to his person. Its been awhile, but I believe his words are "a single seater below me (his preferred method of attack) is as good as lost, as it can not fire upon me from the rear."

With the Brits continuously on the offensive, how can a German pilot be blamed for the type of aircraft he encounters? Like Reinout said in another thread, statistics are often judged to be the best criterion by which individuals can be rated. Although I personally believe that Boelcke was the greatest pilot of WWI, von Richthofen's score entitles him to be called "the greatest".

Hello!

Does Above the Trenches mention the ratio of 2-seater/single-seaters for Atkey and his observer in Brisfits? Recently I have heard reports that that squadrons of two-seaters were avoided in 1918 because they were seen as too great a threat! Perhaps the better pilots tackled the two-seaters as they were more dangerous. "Tommy, has to turn his back to go home some time." (Bloody Red) This is not the case if you have an observer like Gass (Atkeys observer) that could watch the air above and behind.

George

Manfred von Richthofen
Ernst Udet
Karl Emil Schafer
Douglas Bell
Raoul Lufbery
Eduard Dostler

For anyone who considers a 2 seater an easy kill: Pilots mentioned above are aces who I can think of off the top of my head who were shot down (in some instances killed) while attacking 2 seaters.

[Reinout]

Impressive list of aces downed by two-seaters.
Here are some more.

Max Ritter von Muller
Max Immelmann's death was credited to a two-seater crew, though I personally believe he shot off his own propellor after his synch gear malfunctioned.
Hans Bethge
Hans Pippart (his death is usually accredited to a Breguet 14 - that is a two-seater right?)
Walter Gottsch (his 20th victim's return fire killed him)

These men accounted for 113 machines/balloons. Distinguished as they are, a two-seater is not something to be taken lightly.

Kind reagrds,

Reinout

I think, although the two-seaters were not faster or as maneuverable, but the job of a fighter pilots job was to shoot down the two-seaters. What good will shooting down a figher do to the war effort? It was the two seaters that did the recon sorties and bombed, and directed artillery fire. The fighter pilot's job was to simply take them out...again, it would be of no use, because, what could the fighters do to the troops?

It is important to have one's priorities straight. If Richthofen was credited with 80 victories (not to mention the thirteen probables), of which 35 are two seaters, I think this is most commendable, as a service to his country.

I do not mean to detract from the other great (if not great, at least top) aces...Fonck, Bishop, Udet, Mannock, etc, etc, I just mean to set the record straight so that anyone can not come and try to detract from Richthofen.

Hans