A new thread . . .

[mike_baram]

Leo,
And let's not forget Albion's "evenhanded" policy during the Palestine Mandate.
But, "The evil that men do long lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones."
Mike

[leo]

The British method of rule was the tried and true divide and conquer. In Palestine, Ireland, Canada, South Africa, and India this pplicy left these areas in tumult and confusion that may never be sorted out. It may work itself out some day. Let us hope so.

Leo,
In the years of 1917 - 1918 the Germans torpedoed 8 hospital ships. They were:
R.M.R.S. DOVER CASTLE carrying 632 patients - may 26, 1917
H.M.H.S. ASTURIAS - torpedoed and the stern was blown off - at the time of the attack the ship was in full hospital colors - 35 lives lost. Mar 20th, 1917
H.M.H.S. REWA - While steaming fully illuminated in the Bristol Channel the ship was torpedoed in bound from the Mediterranean carrying 279 cot and walking wounded from Greece. All were saved but 3 lascars killed in the initial explosion. The ship sank. This occured at 11:15 PM on Jan 4th, 1918.
H.M.H.S. DRINA - Mar. 1, 1917 - Torpedoed and sunk outside Milford Haven, off Skokholm Island by UC65. 15 lives lost.
I don't have the names of the other 4 hospital ships, but I will see if I can get this information. These sinkings were sanctioned by the German High command in direct contravention to International Law and the Geneva Convention.
VBR,
Jim

[leo]

Thanks Jim< I was not aware of these sinkings. Are you certain all were sink due to U Boats? The Britannic was originally said to have been torpedoed, but it is now thought that it was mined.

Leo,
Yes they were all the victims of U-Boats. I know that the Brittannic and the Mauretania hit mines, but these others were done under the unrestiricted submarine warfare that Germany started waging in 1917. War isn't nice as you know, but there are things that go beyond the pale. These sinkings being some of them.
VBR,
Jim

[leo]

Jim:

That being the case, I must totally agree.

leo

[Reinout]

Jim,

Don't you mean Llandovery Castle? The U-boot skipper was condemned to a meagre 4 years. However, he had gone into hiding and was never seen again. This punishment was ridiculously low and would result in a show-trial after WWII when the Allies hanged a few U-boot crewmen after an incident the nature of which still puzzles me. I also recall that one or perhaps more of the WWI hospital ship sinkings was/were honest mistakes.

Check out www.uboat.net, an excellent site.

Kind regards,

Reinout

No doubt, the sinking of *recognized* hospital ships is a crime. In the case of the Llandover the crew realized the mistake and tried to kill the survivors to prevent detection. I agree that the judgement was ridiculous when compared to the crime, but at least there was a court. Allied war crimes were not handled at all.

Belgium, btw, is not the German "cause" but rather the measures. These were wrong. So were those of the Allies. The US did not enter due to Belgium or the Lusitania, but rather to protect their right to trade with one belligerent wihthout interference of the other. For me that does not sound like a just cause.

Well, we already agreed to disagree on this point.

Is there any proof that the Subs did recognize the hospital ships? Were red cross colors used as disguise by Q-Ships? In the case of the Llandover the crew only realized their mistake after the attack, and then committed the real crime.

regards

Axel

Reinout and Axel,
The sinkings previously mentioned were deliberate, and the information was found on a web site for Royal Navy hospital ships history. I do not believe that the ships mentioned were of the Q-ship variety. 1 case of mistaken identity I can understand, but 8 is not mistakes. Especially when a couple are done within a few months time frame. As far as Allied "war crimes" being publicly prosecuted, I don't think you'd find a whole lot of sympathy for any perpetrators. However in the light of some of the things that (for instance) the Germans did in WW1 or even WW2, it is understandable why some of the incidents occurred on the Allied side. Once again this comes down to what was official policy and unofficial acts. I am NOT making any apologies for what ever atrocities were committed by the Allies, but I will unequivocably state that they pale by comparison to those the Germans committed in Belgium in WW1, or those committed during WW2. And as awful as the civilian collateral casualties were during the strategic bombing, they don't compare to the systematic extermination of a people, race, or religion due to political belief or "racial purity". One could not be helped, the other was totally controllable. Along with that, Germany made the mistake in two different wars of allying herself with countires who were also participating in mass genocide. So if they were cast in a bad light it's only due to their own choices, and their willingness to condone & participate in systematic genocide. I think the German people of today understand the wrong of it better than many other countries. The winners always make the rules and as unfair as it sounds, that's just the way it is. I look more up to Germany for her reparations she has made to the Jewish, Slavs, Poles, Gypsies that the Nazi's tried to exterminate. I am unfamiliar whether or not she made any reparations to the Belgians for atrocities committed in both WW's, or the Dutch. The Japs on the other hand need to be brought to task for the stuff they did in Nanking in 1937/38 and other places during the war, and make reparations to their victims families.
VBR,
Jim

Jim, Who will stand in judgement of the US government that committed the same crimes to the Native Americans who lived here that the Germans of WW2 committed against te Jews ect...?
Regards
Dan