A new thread . . .

Tobias,
I stated in an earlier thread that I do not hold the Germany of today to blame for the sins of her fathers. I DO however hold the society of 1914 to 45 to blame for the psychological fixation that placed the Jews in the position to be the scapegoat for all the failures of that country. That had been brewing in Europe for years. There is an excellent book out on that very subject right now. It's called 'Hitler's Executioners - The willingness of the ordinary Germans to commit Genocide'. The author goes deeply into the psychological profile of the Germans of that day. Now as far as the Turks and etc, YES Germany was in a position of great influence... where the heck do you think the Turks were getting most of their weapons from? And for the Japs, the German Legation made a report to Berlin on the Rape of Nanking in 1937. For his pains he was arrested and taken back to Germany. Do you think they were in a position to do anything? I do! The rest of the world stood up to the terror, and did what ever they could to lodge official protests and set up safehavens for the Chinese citizens of Nanking. I know the U.S. has looked the other way on a lot of things she shouldn't have, but you cannot excuse the conduct of one by saying "it's okay, everyone is doing it". When it is official...it is even more heinous as the society as a whole supports it, and those that don't run the risk of execution I know, however they are usually a minority.
VBR,
Jim

I won't argue your opinion, we've both stated what we think, however:

Anti-semitism had been raging for years in Europe and the US well before WWI.

It was especially bad in the 1890s which explained a mass exedous to the US, particularly from Eastern Europe and Russia from 1893-7.

There are also numerous books that have the premise that the rest of the world watched and did nothing as the Nazis "cleansed" Europe of the Jews. Many people were happy to see them leaving for Palestine and points other than Europe.

My father, who was a WW2 vet wounded at Anzio, was clueless about the Death Camps until The Nurnberg Trials. contrary to Saving Private Ryan, most soldiers probalby weren't that involved with the socio-political world of WW2. My father joind on Dec 8, because the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Before then he was more concerned about where the CCC was going to send him next.

Numerous officials have stated that the Nazis were only able to effectively eliminate the Jews when they were assisted by the conquered nations. This is why Denmark and the Netherlands were effective in saving most of their Jewish population (they actively resisted) but Poland and France lost most of theirs.

We like to think that we did everything we could to prevent the Holocaust, But in reality we actually gave it little more than lip service until after the fact.

On a side note,
The Entry for Encyclopedia Britannica from Pre-WW2 said more about Hitler being a non-smoker/drinker, than his antisemitic views. It just didn't seem that important at the time.

On another interesting side note:
Only SS soldiers were prosecuted for war crimes concerning concentration camps atrocities but close to half of all camp staff were drawn from the German Civilian Polizei. Not a single German police officer has ever been prosecuted. In fact the Allies used the Polizei to maintian order and assist in tracking down SS soldiers.

Tobias

Maybe someone in pre-WW1 Germany studied the government sanctioned, systematic genocide of the Native Americans by the US government and decided to try it in Belgium. ( And Jim, my chops hurt sooooo bad. Please no more!...)
Dan

Tobias,
Good point, but the ones who were able to escape their due prosecution were the Japanese responsible for the atrocities committed in the Pacific Theater, thanks to the cold war and the need for Japanese territory to use as bases to keep tabs on Russia.

Dan,
There you go with the Indians again. What ... do you think I condone what the U.S. did to the Indians? As if this is what this conversation subject were about. You need to re-adjust your gills and swim in the correct stream little fish. ; )
VBR,
Jim

Jim,
I am mearly pointing out that the US government did the same thing to the Indians that the Germans apparently did to Belgium citizens in WW1.And not too many years before WW1. And perhaps ,people living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...
Dan

Dan,
And I am merely supporting my view that Germany was fighting for the wrong reasons in WW1. While I do not hold the common soldiers to blame for their patriotic leanings, I do hold the government to blame for fostering the attitudes which led to the war, and the subsequent atrocities. It is a mark of shame what our government did to the American Indian, I however did not commit any of those things. I do not live in a glass house, as I have always tried to treat peoples of all nations with respect. The only times when I treated them rudely was in response to rudeness that I received. But any government that fosters a belief of their inherent superiority dooms other nations to suffer their abuse. So it was with American troops in Vietnam and the attitudes towards the Vietnamese. As we know the Arayan superiority myth led to the genocide of the Jewish population of Europe, and there have been many offshoots of it since. Just as the myth of Japanese superiority led to the Genocide of the Chinese, so did the myth of 'Manifest Destiny ' lead to the abuses heaped upon the American Indian. Where were all these beliefs promoted and fostered? Simply put ... by the respective governments and societies from whence they sprang.
VBR,
Jim

Jim,
Very well put .I can't agree with you more.
Dan

Jim, you wrote:
>The sinking of any hospital ship (they are
>well marked and CLEARLY unmistakable) is an
>atrocity and Germany DID DELIBERATELY sink
> these vessels ...

In this you might give me a bit more competence, since I have seen incoming ships through a periscope. If the weterh is only slightly rough or foggy, you only see the ship when it is virtually above you. At this time it is usually too take to make a really good shot it (at least when you only have traight forward-torpedoes).

I think that at this point your argumentation of DELIBERATE sinking simply does not hold. If a submarine is in an area of unrestricted warfare, it won´t take risks.

regards

Axel

Jim, you wrote:
> I asked for evidence of Russian atrocities
> on the Eastern Front IN WORLD WAR ONE!

In february 1915 the duma decided that the German minority in the western ucraine, the so called "Schitomir", lost all of their property and where to be deported to prevent them joining the German forces. In 1917, of some 200000 only some 60000 still live, while 10000 could escape. Some 130000 perish.

Of the some 2278146 POWs in Russian custody (Central powers) over 400000 perish in the camps. This is five times the rate of German death in Allied camps and 8 times that of Allied death in German camps.

Source: Ratza, "Anzahl und Arbeitsleistung der deutschen Kriegsgefangenen", P 230, Munich 1974

In addition, both the Russian and the Austrian side is quick in hanging suspected "spies" in the territories that swap hands between them in the East. Many of the Russian victims are Jews, who are often accused of collaboration with the Central forces. No numbers here, sorry.

Atrocities pre WWI and post 1917 are plenty, but not to the point of this debate.

Please note that most of the 5000 Belgians who were killed were neither children nor women nor old, but of the male civil population. The PROOF you mention on no civil resistance of the Belgians simply does not exist. It is generally acknowledged today (by German and Belgian historians) that the incidends at these times were either instigated by armed forces or did not happen at all. There WAS, however, some armed resistance. I have a photo that was published in 1914 by the British and is said to show a Belgian civilian, riding a German cavalry horse (with lance) and allegedly taken in Louven at the time of its capture by the Germans. If you are interested I can scan it.

On "official policy":
I am quite sure that the over 500000 dead civilians in Germany due to the blocade were very much part of official policy. And this DID affect civlians only, mainly children, sick and old.
In the atrocities before the war, I simply do not believe that the German, British or US government had no idea of the events going on in the Phillipines or in South Africa. You can safely lay the 250000 dead of the Phillipines at the feet of Teddy Roosvelt. Many of the contemporaries did so.

mfg

Axel

> It's called 'Hitler's Executioners - The willingness of the ordinary Germans to commit Genocide'.

I think that Goldhagens work is lacking in many points, mainly by assumptions and neglecting or downgrading all sources of contradicting evidence.

However, I won´t discuss this here. Please read the following for a well founded argument on his book:
http://www.wilpaterson.edu/~newpol/issue23/brand23.htm