A new thread . . .

Axel,
The other sinkings occurred in January, March, and May of 1917, and there are some that are said to have occurred in 1918. The exact dates are posted in an earlier reply to Leo. The site that I gave you in my previous reply about Hospital Ships paint schemes contains some of the dates also.
VBR,
Jim

[leo]

The following is a direct quoteee from, THE FIRST WORLD WAR, GERMANY AND, AUSTRIA-HUNGARY, 1914-1918. ARNOLD, LONDON ,1997 ISBN 0 340 57348

"In March 1915 Oberost informed Vienna that it planned to burn two villages in Russian Poland for each German settlement destroyed in East Prussia-much to the delight of the Austrians, who hoped that the Poles would thereby be driven into their camp.

The severity of Oberost's meaures was a direct result of the revelations of Russian terror in East Prussia during August and September 1914. Despite official stavka and individual army orders to eschew plunder malicious destruction, especially Russian rear-guard and train personnel as well as Cossacks undertook a systematic campaign of terror against the German population. Enteire villages-Domnau, Abschwangen, Ortelsburg, and Bartelstein, among many others had been burned to the ground after the Battle of Gumbinnen on 20 August. A Russian soldier recorded the fate of Schirwindt (1300 inhabitants): In a few hours the town was totally plundered; everything that was not grocery or money was given over to the flames and total destruction. Twenty people were summarily executed at Santoppen for ringing a church bell (a suspected signal) during a burial service. Women and girls particularly suffered during the occupation. Plish Jews were suspected of having encouraged the theft of household goods for resale and personal gain.

Thr Russian retreat from Tannenberg exacerbated the civilian horror. The Russians took with them 10,000 draft eligible men( but, also women) as "hostages"; countless bridges as well as rail and comminication facilities were destroyed; and factories and utility installations were rendered inoperable. East Prussian authorities estimated the Russian occupation armies killed 1620 civilians, destroyed 17,000 buildings, and stole or slaughtered 135,000 horses, 250,000 cows, and 200,000 pigs . "Pillage, like death", as the historian John Lynn noted of an earlier struggle," arrives hand in hand with war."

The following paragraph goes on to number Russian atrocities in Austrian Poland (Galicia).

Leo,
What the Russian armies did was WRONG, but it still doesn't excuse the German atrocities in Belgium. I guess that atrocities and the use thereof can best be summed up by the following quote: " Those who have studied the patterns of large-scale killings throughout history have noted that the sheer concentration of power in government is lethal - that only a sense of absolute unchecked power can make atrocities possible." "Power kills, and absolute power kills absolutely". Iris Chang - 'The Rape Of Nanking' 1997.
As we see from studies of the German and Russian Governments in the late 1800's through 1918, and the German government of 1936 - 1945 absolute power was concentrated in the governments, and the Armies are tools of the government.
VBR,
Jim

This is a passage from Brusilov's memoirs. At the time he was the commander of the Russian VIIth Army in Galicia:

'Clearly, in as much as possible, I did not allow robbery of peaceful citizens and other such outrages. I also demanded that everything taken from the population be paid for immediately in cash at the rate set by the commander in chief.
I must nevertheless admit that during the time immediately after we crossed the border and entered eastern Galicia some cities were torched and private estates falling in the path of advance were for the most part burned and pillaged. The perpetrators of these outrages were for the most part our cavalry who were moving ahead of our advance. They were for the most part peasants and were embittered against landowners. Transport units from the rear were also involved. The latter, as non combat units evaded strict supervision and looted despite threat of most severe punishment. ..In western Galicia such looting did not occur, the number of fires lessened to a considerable degree and there was more order in this respect.'


This is my translation of the passage, I do not have access to the 1931 oxford translation so any mistakes in the quote are my own. Sorry.

It does bring up a few interesting points, one, that at least one Russian army commander admitted to looting and burning (but not raping and killing) occurring in Galicia at the outset of the war. Two, that it is attributed to lack of control of the rank and file (esp. in the rear) and not official policy. And finally most of the incidents are laid at the feet of the rear area troops and the cavalry, who are less strictly supervised than the other units.

I just thought it was an interesting and applicable passage.

Regards,

MDD

oops Brusilov was commanding the Russian VIIIth army, not the VIIth. I missed a I there.
I bet that makes you guys really confident of my translation


MDD

[leo]

Jim:
I do not believe I made any comment on German atrocities in Belgium. If I had commented, it would have been to condemn them. My response was to Axel who claimed rhere were no reports of Russian atrocities in East Prussia in 1914.

leo

Leo,
I apologize, but what I meant was for all those who would think "well they did it, so why was it wrong for the Germans to do what they did in Belgium?" As I said before, no atrocity committed by what ever side can be right. But I find the ones against an unarmed civilian populace to be the most repugnant. For those reasons, and the disregarding of a signed treaty of Neutrality, the Germans were in the wrong. But America has broken its own treaties with the Indians, so puhleeease people, do NOT think I am placing America in a morally superior position. I must restate my view of the German expansionist policy, it would seem that in 1900 everyone including America was involved in imperialist expansionism. Hence the Philippine insurrection. But I think that by WW1 the lines were pretty much drawn as far as who had owned what slice of the pie. When it all comes out in the wash, the war was a tragedy on a grand scale for all involved.
VBR,
Jim

Leo, I stated that there are no reports that I KNOW of. You just changed that.

Michael, Brussilov was in command of the 1916-offensive, so it was not at the wars beginning. But that is just an unimportant side-note.

Jim, I can only agree. The stage was set not only in the disivion of the world, but also in Europe, with the arms race between France, Germany and Russia. The problem was the general distrust and the fact that war was considered by all major participants not as an evil but a justified measure. This, at least, changed with the GREAT war.

mfg

Axel

Leo, I stated that there are no reports that I KNOW of. You just changed that.

Michael, Brussilov was in command of the 1916-offensive, so it was not at the wars beginning. But that is just an unimportant side-note.

Jim, I can only agree. The stage was set not only in the disivion of the world, but also in Europe, with the arms race between France, Germany and Russia. The problem was the general distrust and the fact that war was considered by all major participants not as an evil but a justified measure. This, at least, changed with the GREAT war.

mfg

Axel

Axel,

Yes, Brusilov did command the 1916 offensive but the period of time he refers to in the quote I gave was when he was in command of the VIIIth Army in Galicia from the period August 1914 to January 1916 (pp110-111 in the memoirs).

I haven't yet made it to reading about the 1916 offensive yet


VBR,

MDD