Billy Bishop, 2 June '17, another possibility?

[Ron_F]

Forumite and Bishopites:
I finally got a copy of 'The Jasta War Chronology'
In the intro it states that if a pilot merely crashes his plane, and walks away unharmed, its not recorded. Therefore, glancing at claims by Allieds over fighters might be exaggerated. This would be in reference to German records not containing some a/c losses....?
Might help in explaining some non corroborating claims, such as the 2 June 17 incident!

Amazon has found "Hanging a legend : the NFB's shameful attempt to discredit
Billy Bishop, VC" for me, and should be on its way... cant wait to further my knowledge on this for curiousity sakes.... only $16.95.

Just wanted to bring that to everyones attention. Not trying to stir up this controversy again!

salute,
Ron F.

[Billy_Bishop]

THANK YOU RON!!! Someone else finally noticed!!!

I've been saying that for a long time, and people keep telling my I'm crazy. Even if I am crazy, that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Ron_F]

Al,
Crazy, no. Obsessed.. maybe. ;o] I found it interesting no one bothered to mention it before from that book. The more books i get, the happier i am to help someone.
Wonder what Jasta has to say on this? ;o] But that might lenghten this thread to much when we should just read about them and enjoy the history... ]

salute,
Ron F.

[wings]

Bishop shot down dozens of planes without causing German casualties? I don't think so.

[Ron_F]

Cant prove or disprove all of his destroyed or OOC. Until a complete record of losses comes up, which wont, then it will never be recorded otherwise. Read the passage in the book. Not just for 2 june 17, but for a lot of claims of Allied flyers. Overclaiming happens in a war.

And Jasta war chronology only does fighters, not 2 seaters. would be interesting when that one comes out..

Ron

Jasta,
I will quote author Norman Franks (of GOGS fame). From 'The Red Air Fighter' - "On the British side, confirming victories was more difficult, but as long as the aeroplane attacked was seen to crash, burn or in some other way be destroyed, and verified again by either air or ground observers, it was credited to the victorious pilot. However, with the difficulty of flying above cloud or higher up, perhaps hotly engaged by other aircraft, it was not always possible to observe the fate of an aircraft that appeared to be going down for the last time - generally in a spinning nose dive or even an all out plunge earthwards. This gave rise to the term "Out of Control" as a claim - in World War Two what was known as a probable kill. Pilots of both sides, of course, used this spinning down manoeuvre as a ruse to get out of trouble, and when near the ground would regain roper control and fly off. But provided another pilot confirmed what he thought was a machine going down "out of control" and looking certain to crash, this "probable" victory was confirmed and listed as a victory. This happened throughout the war, even though in the second half of 1918, the number of "OOC" claims had so increased owing to the intensity of the air fighting, that only crashed or flaming victories were listed in the RAF Communiques." " In any event, the German machine and its pilot had certainly been stopped doing the work it was engaged upon over the front."
So to the trained eye of the professional, any confrontation where the enemy is forced to abandon, or break from the engagement would be viewed as a victory or "kill" for the pilot. Seeing as how a majority of the dogfighting took place behind German lines, the Allied pilots didn't have the luxury of landing and grabbing tropies or POW's to confirm their kills like the Germans did. So the "OOC" was a perfectly valid victory despite the assumption that the opposing pilot may have walked away. So in this case the German Records would be a poor source to try to confirm these victories. Warfare makes no room for the ardent "black and white" statistician, there are entirely TOO MANY variables thrown into the action.
Regards,
Jim

[rammjaeger]

Ron, just that is part of Bishops problem.

He claimed only very, very seldom twoseaters but dozens of oneseaters in one string. Did he see really so seldom German doubleseaters? Or did he avoid doubleseaters with intend? Or was his eye sight so bad that he could not make a difference between one seaters and double seaters and reported only downed oneseaters?

Even IF he was really flying "alone and deep over German-held area" - he could not avoid double seaters, especially not the so-called "easy targets" like doubleseaters exercising the cooperation with the infantry (happened often) or even double seaters of "Flugparks" with pilots making their examinas or test flights (happened very often too).

VBR

Hannes

[wings]

If you only consider Bishop's "destroyed" victories, you will find very few, if any, in the German records. If you cry "incomplete" records, then what about McCudden, Mannock, etc? You can't have it both ways.

[Ron_F]

Im not taking a stance either way. I just put out some info that seems to have been forgotten or not read. And i know what Bishops record is. only a few 2 seaters. Mostly scouts.
I was reffering to all Allied claims at that point, not just Bishops.
I understand Jastas point, cant have it both ways.
But, im going by whats recorded as official. Cant change it anyways. Those out there must deal with it.

salute,
Ron F.

[Barrett]

Back to the originqal topic: Bishop's VC action. There are no German casualties to support the claim, but as noted here (and many MANY times previously) Bish could have shot down 2-3 planes w/out German KIAs/WIAs. Unlikely but it's possible. Therefore, we're left to wonder about the Case of the Missing Records, as Al has noted that Jasta 20 was in transit on the date in question, and might have been at the (temporary) field Bishop attacked--whatever it was.
So, for documentation from the German side, we needn't be concerned with pilot losses. We simply need a report, official or otherwise, that such a solo attack occurred anywhere in Bishop's operating area. No such report has surfaced in the past 82 years, but there's always hope...