Gontermanns First Victory on 14 Nov 1916

[Soderbaum]

Hi all

I am a little confused about the first victory of Lt Heinrich Gontermann this Day..

In the book about him it is stated that he on his first solo-flight with Jasta 5 on 14 Nov 1916 had the great luck to shoot down an enemy aircraft.
On 400 m height over the british lines he shoot 250 shots against his adversary, then his gun jammed.
He could Not see the enemy fell vertical against the ground because of the jam.
But the German front line batteries confirmed that the british aircraft fell burning and chrashed. The crew fell(!) out before hitting the ground...

The KTB extracts of Jasta 5 gives the time 16:30 and the location MORVAL..

The book TSTB by Trevor Henshaw, does not mentioned any known british losses this day..

But in the Eberhardt loss list the German named the crew LtdR Max Dieterle and Lt Hans Gurtler of FFA 8 as killed at MORVAL..
They perhaps flew an Alb CVII 2180/ ..

I have no corresponding claims by the allies for them yet...

Gontermann made earlier in his book a remark that he had huge problems to identify enemy aircrafts through their markings..

Jasta 5 flew within 1 German Army at this time..The French also frequently was their adversaries...

Do anyone has any clue or hint regarding his possible opponent, or any material from the 1 German Army...??

Thanks in advance and Ho Ho .. ..
Gunnar

According to Above the Lines, Gontermann's first victory was and FE2b above Morval at 1630 on 14 Nov 1916.

Grant

Hello Gunnar,

No known French casualty for 14 November 1916.

Christophe

[Soderbaum]

Thank you Grant and Christophe..!

It seems that if not Trevor had any earlier unknown british losses...that this still waits for answer regarding possible victims..

Perhaps there is someone out there in the World who has more information..?

Ho Ho
Gunnar

Hello Gunnar,

First, let me wish you the very best of season's greetings.

Hmm, Gontermann's first... I've had a question mark beside the OtL attribution for some years and I have to say I am content on present (substantial) evidence that there were no British losses on this day. Otherwise I suspect I would have come across some primary source link-up for it amongst the thousands I've seen. But there are none.

My guess would be a French loss, but personally I cannot take that one any further, unfortunately.

It is, nevertheless, unusual for a claim involving a pusher type to be made in error.

I suspect time will answer this one, like most of the other unknowns.

Well spotted.

Regards,

Trevor

[Soderbaum]

Thank you Trevor

Your knowledge regarding british losses is outstanding, as well Your book They Sky Their Battlefield( TSTB).

I wish you a Happy New Year which can perhaps ? ending up with a "new" supplement book/article regarding allied losses... I have a feeling that you have found "some" interesting additional information...?

I am eagerly waiting

VBR
Gunnar