Victoria Cross??

Does there seem to be any real or constant criteria for the award of medals (outside of the Purlpe Heart)? Frank Luke downed three E.A.s and two balloons within ten minutes, for DSC, but Rickenbacker got the MH for two EAs, but he had to lobby Congress for ten years. Lt Goettler got shot down going to the aid of the Lost Battallion in the Meuse-Argonne, by flying too damn low, and died in the shootdown. The Poul le Merite was awardeed by the Kaiser for downing 8 planes, but this was shifted to 18 later in the war. Does anyone know what the official definition of 'above and beyond the call of duty"? Did the call of duty require Luke to go to Murvaux for those balloons (especially without the cover required for balloon work)? Billy H/12/13/99.

VCs (and other awards) make for fascinating studies, and it is sometimes hard to discern the reasons for awards being granted, upgraded, downgraded or denied. It is quite clear that the rules changed with the times - VCs and Congressional Medals of Honour were handed out liberally in the late 19th century when few other gallantry awards were available (compare Rourke's Drift VCs with Medals of Honour awarded to members of Benteen and Reno's commands at Little Big Horn). In 1900 a member of the Lord Strathcona Horse (Richardson) was awarded a VC for galloping back to retreive a fellow Trooper whose horse had been shot and who was in danger of being captured by Akrikaners; McNamara won a VC in similar circumstances (but he was landing an aeroplane to retrieve a fellow crew - and the enemy were now the Turks), but later rescues of a similar nature (in Russia and Iraq) earned DSOs, then DFCs, and finally nothing at all (George Keefer, RCAF, landed a Hurricane in the Libyan Desert to rescue a SAAF pilot, who flew out sitting on Keefer's knees - all Keefer got was a letter of thanks from the man's family). VCs were certainly harder to win in the Second World War than in the First Great Unpleasantness. However, it is best to recall that heroism is something that is impossible to quantify with mathematical precision, and the rules governing awards were made, then interpreted and applied by mere human beings. Which is as it should be - would one prefer to have Bill Gates and his minions calculating who should get what - VC vs DSO vs DFC vs a letter of commendation ?

Senor Barrett: The awarding of gongs wasn't always political, but occasionally political, like the award to EVR. Does anyone have a count on how many political awards were made to careerists who survived their exploits? And is it safe to say the majority of men who got the MH died without knowing so? In WWI how many careerists were in the USAS in France? If you realize that the AS at the start of the war had very few men in it, and that all of the careerists like Mitchell Foulois, et al never saw aerial combat. Barrett, I request a reappraisal, on the grounds that these men did not put themselves in for those medals, and further that the medals did not get them promotions, and the MH was worth $10 dollars/month, and a salute...Don't let cynicism spoil your historical perspective. Billy H/12/12/99.

Rosebud: Have you goot any idea of how many machinegunners, riflemen, artillerists, during WWI, were awarded any sort of a medal for the massive casualties they caused? Can anyone verify that the Japanese never awarded a medal in any of their wars, and what was the reason behind this lack of consideration for the heroic gesture? Billy H/12/13/99.

Politics ! Careerism ! How often are deeds and awards attributed to these motives - and how often are the motives given the worst possible attritutes ! I am one of those who believes that, in the realm of decorations, the right people usually get the right decorations for the right reasons most of the time. As I said in a an earlier post, the systems are not infallible or fair in any iron-clad fashion, because the systems are created and administered by people rather than computers - and people can come up with rules and interpretations which are themselves open to greater discussion and explanation. I am not familiar with American awards, but at various times the British/Commonwealth awards have had some interesting twists. One was to create a distinction between SERVICE awards and GALLANTRY awards. The latter are most often discussed, but the former are interesting as well - decorations for distinguished services not involving combat - from running an industry well to designing airplanes to operating an efficient squadron servicing branch. The SERVICE awards have included the various forms of knighthood, the Order of St.Michael and St.George (in three levels), Order of the Bath, Order of the British Empire (in five or six degrees). These enabled a deserving non-combat person to receive a decoration which would nevertheless not be confused with a GALLANTRY award. The distinctions were often blurred, but not so much at ground-pounders getting GALLANTRY awards but in people performing brave acts (such as escaping from enemy captivity) and winding up with something like an MBE (Member, Order of the British Empire) which was more commonly associated with service rather than gallantry. A common complaint, too, is that "so-and-so deserved an award and did not get it" - which may or may not be true. But if awards are given out by the bushel basket, they cease to have any significance. If every soldier got a Military Medal, what would be the symbolic value of the Military Medal ? Hence, we find instances of awards being bestowed in accordance with quotas based on variuos factors (manpower in the field, intensity of operations, hours flown).

Re Billy H's question regarding the Japanese NOT conferring medals:
Taprell Dorling's "Ribbons & Medals" (1956 edition) list 5 Japanese Orders, as well as several War/Campaign Medals. Of these the Order of the Sacred Treasure "[was]frequently bestowed upon Naval and military officers for war service..." and the Order of the Golden Kite "...awarded solely for bravery in action by officers and men of the Army, Navy and Air Force."
I know that Sir David Henderson (one of the founders of the RFC, and the grandfather of a dear friend of mine) held a Japanese Order amongst his many decorations (possibly, though not sure, the Chrysanthemum).
Considering the above, the second part of Billy's question seems not to apply.
VBR
Liz Milne

Billy

As best as i remember the jap's had a number of different braver awards and wound badges, but how the system worked i don't know. As for VC's in WWII, you only have to look at what the Gurka's had to do to get the award to know the system was biased to the english. I remeber one story where a Gurka was injuried 10 times (around half being GSW's) and still managed to hold off 250 Japs for two hours! Now he deserved that medal!

Mark

[Barrett]

I suspect that it is accurate to say that Imperial Japan gave no decorations to noncommissioned personnel. Generals and admirals are seen with all sorts of gongs but has anyone ever seen a photo of anyone below the rank of, say, senior lieutenant with a medal? Me neither.
Some Japanese officers understood the inherent inequity of the system and presented their own tokens of esteem, the most common apparently being a generic award, usually a sword engraved "Buko Batsugan" or (rough translation) "For conspicuous military valor." My character, Flight Petty Officer Sakaida, received one in "Hellcats The Novel."
Friends of mine who fought the Japanese are unanimous: Japan expected Medal of Honor courage from every one of its soldiers--and usually got it.

[mike_baram]

Barrett,
Similarly, the IDF did not give out medals until the 1973 war. Until then, any extraordinary conduct in the field was acknowledged with a certificate and a handshake.
When Yitzhak Rabin was ambassador to the US, he was surprised to find out that, at his first formal reception, he was expected to appear in "full dress", meaning with all the medals he was entitled to wear pinned to his tux. The former CinC of the Israeli Army had NO medals.
In '73 they started giving out medals for valor to make up for the lack of preparation that resulted in over 2,000 dead.
Mike

Barrett,

Make of this what you will, this is from a summary of "Die Like The Carp" which is the story of the Cowra prison breakout in Australia in WW2.

The ringleader of the breakout of Japanese POWs was a Sgt-Major Kanazawa, who fought in China and the Pacific and was awarded the Order of the Rising Sun and the Order of the Sacred Treasure. He was captured supposedly because he was unconscious with malaria when found by an Australian patrol.

I have no idea what these awards were issued for but I suspect not bravery, since, as has been said the Japanese expected bravery from everyone.

I wouldn't call this the strongest of sources, but perhaps it's worth following up.

Regards,

Simon