Victoria Cross??

[Scotty]

Greetings,

On July 6 1917 Raymond Collishaw is credited with downing 6 Albatros DV. ( ATT). Was he recommended for the Victoria Cross for this action?

The United States during WW2 did award the CMH for similar action..

Was there some debate as to just how many he did shoot down? It would appear that some VC were awarded for fewer kills in one action (ex. Alan Jerrard..)

Does anyone have knowledge (fact or opinion) as to why Collishaw action that day did not warrant this award?

Thank You for your time...

Scotty

Collishaw WAS recommended for the Victorias Cross twice in WW1. Both times they were downgraded to the DSO (I think?). But I know that they were downgraded both times. I think it had something to do with him being in the RNAS. I hope that this helps you.

WEDGE

[Vin]

What gave rise to the award of decorations ? Rickenbacher appears to have received a DSC for his first victory. Is PR and politics involved ?


Vin

Hi all</p>

For an interesting example of the politics of the VC, see this article on Albert Jacka, one of Australia's most famous WWI soldiers.</p> http://www.hellfire-corner.demon.co.uk/jacka.htm


Personally I think he should have been awarded at least one bar to his VC. It's interesting because the article seems to reinforce the old British views on colonials which revisionists have put under attack lately.</p>



Regards,</p>

Simon</p>

[Barrett]

Hoo-boy; gongs are a sensitive topic. In Collishaw's case, his 6 victories on the date in question only involved one assessed as destroyed; the other 5 were OOCs. Note that those RFC/RAF pilots with 5-6 destroyed in one day did not receive the VC, so Collie's situation is not unique.
As for EVR's Distinguished Service Cross (2nd to the MOH), it was basically an I-was-there gong. He had TEN of 'em by the time the shootin' match ended, as there weren't lesser awards to be presented. In WW II those actions (assuming they resulted in e/a assessed as destroyed rather than OOC or driven east) would have brought Air Medals or DFCs. I believe that the Silver Star was awarded after WW I to most of those troops whose DSC nominations were denied.
The late Marion Carl, marine ace and by-god warrior, said that major awards should be held until after the war in order to present them in a more even-handed fashion. Trouble is, military decorations are essentially stepping stones for careerists as well as morale builders for civilians. Therefore, most gongs are political and immune to systematic fairness or logic. (A former White House aide once told me that Lyndon Bastard Johnson used to say, "Trot me out a hero, son. I wanna make a speech.")

True, his being RNAS automatically put him at the back of the bus. But I believe it went further than that.
IMO Ray Collishaw had much in common with Mick Mannock. Both came from poorer backgrounds and weren't part of the elite officer class of the RFC - Collishaw getting an even shorter end of the stick because he joined the Navy.

As a Canadian I can identify with issues that may not be as obvious to others. Collishaw came from British Columbia, the west coast of Canada. His acceptance by his eastern peers would be less than overwhelming; especially if other aces were in anyway in competition with him. By this I imply that the home front - being far in the majority eastern Canada - was cheering for the homeboys. Ask anyone in Canada today...few can name a canadian ace. The ones that do know one invariably answer " Billy Bishop". The government and the press of the day saw anything west of Winnipeg as a northern hinterland. Dont get me wrong. I'm sure Bishop did everything he said he did <tongue in cheek> (I wont even mention Collie should have had more confirmations and credit for his balloon victorys).

However. I feel this lack of recognition contributed to Collishaw's success as a leader. Pilots under him would have respected the admirable no-nonsense qualities of this man and felt confident flying for/as the underdog.
In one way its a good thing Collishaw didnt get the VC; Mick had die for his and I'm sure Collie would have had to too.

For persons interested in the "politics" of the Victoria Cross, an absolute "must read" is M.J. Crook, THE EVOLUTION OF THE VICTORIA CROSS (Tunbridge Wells, Midas Books, 1975). For a rather narrower slant on the subject, you might consult an article, "VC or Not VC: Bestowing a Battlefield Icon" which appeared in CANADIAN MILITARY HISTORY, Volume 5 No.2 (Autumn 1996). Canadian readers of this forum are particularly recommended to subscribe to CANADIAN MILITARY HISTORY, published by the Laurier Centre for Military, Strateic and Disarmament Studies, Wilfred Laurier University, Waterloo, Ontario. Addressing the gentleman who ascribed Collishaw's not receiving a VC to his Pacific Coast origins, this is simply wrong. During the First World War the Canadian government was almost totally indifferent to all things aeronautical, whether in Canada or overseas. Any actions to recommend a Canadian for an air award would have been taken at the command levels within the British flying services. The claim that naval airmen were in some way discrimated against, vis-a-vis the RFC, should perhaps be investigated further. Without going into extended research, I know of at least two RNAS VC awards (Warneford and Bell-Davies); were there any others ? Whether the RNAS got two or more VCs, were the numbers of such awards disproportionate to the size of the RNAS compared to the RNAS ? And since a VC could not be awarded unless somebody first RECOMMENDED a person for said award, are there known (i.e. documented) instances of RNAS aircrew being recommended for the VC and having it downgraded to a DSO ? If downgraded, by whom ? This is important, for if a recommendation for an RNAS VC was downgraded at, let us say, Headquarters, Dover Command, then it would be due to internal RN/RNAS policies - not to RNAS/RFC rivalries. I mention this because of a story related to me by the late John Chown, who said that on many occasions in both world wars, members of the Royal Artillery and Royal Canadian Artillery, about to be overrun, would call down fire on their own positions. Admiring infantry officers, seeing this, would recommend a VC - superior artillery officers would downgrade it because artillery personnel were routinely trained and instructed to call down fire on their own posts when such desperate measures were needed - in other words, the artillery considered such heroism as just part of the job ! So perhaps the RNAS had a similarly conservative view of what constituted exceptional gallantry. More research and substantiation, please.

Thanx for the book info Hugh. I'll be sure to look for it. I have recently spent a lot of time researching VC citations, and the one thing that interested me most was the dispairity of the deeds.

On one hand a VC would be won for a seemingly ordinary action. For example Richard Davis was shot down and burnt his plane before being rescued.(???) Whereas the actions of Collishaw never earned him one, yet Bishop's unverified deed did. Winning a VC appears to be more of a popularity contest, especially in the air services.

BTW I believe you're correct on your count. Only 2 VCs won by RNAS pilots (Warneford's actions were definately worthy considering the year); compared to RFC(11) and RAF(4) during WWI.

Interpretation of the criteria for which a VC was awarded is very open ended. Perhaps these diverse deeds it what holds the fasination and the mystique of the medal till this day.
In conclusion however, I think it's safe to say that it was easier to win one by killing 50 Germans in an afternoon on the ground than downing an even greater number in aerial combat over the course the war.

[stevedrew]

Gents,
Ray Collishaw was the highest scorer on Sopwith Triplanes during the Great War, followed by Bob Little. Collishaw claimed 34 in a Tripe, another 18 in Camels. 4 members of his "Black Flight" also became triplane aces. Another interesting fact - individual scores on a single machine - Collishaw comes into the list of the top ten TWICE - Once in Tripes, once in Camels. Barker easily tops the list with 47 victories in the same machine!

[PeterL]

Rosebud informs us..."Only 2 VCs won by RNAS pilots (Warneford's actions were definately worthy considering the year); compared to RFC(11) and RAF(4) during WWI."

I have to say that this seams fairly in proportion to to the ratio of RNAS to RFC/RAF squadrons in service. Any of the number crunchers care to comment?

Peter L