Frank Luke memorial

[Vic_Mouton]

Hi All
Remember the good old day's of the Frank Luke sign up? How some of us got people to support the cause by threats of bodily harm etc. . Stephen have you heard anything from the French? It will be such a pity if this just dies a silent death.

VBR
Vic

[stephen]

Hi Vic:

It will not die a silent death, and yes, I remember the hard work that everyone put into it. I have not heard a single word from any French authority on the topic, though Billy did mention it to the French ambassador (I believe) a couple of weeks ago. As you recall, it was early in the spring when this thing got rolling... I spend about 130 days per year on the road either driving or announcing races, mostly between April and November. I just flew in from Tokyo last night (Winston West stock cars at the Twin Ring Motegi, Dec 11, Speedvision, 3 pm eastern for race fans) and am suffering from a major case of jet lag. So my off season is about to begin, and work on the memorial, the Frey report and my next trip to France will soon get a boost.

No, it will not die a silent death... but I have always figured this and the Frey report to be long term projects. Thanks for the inquiry.

Also, I have decided not to go to the effort of posting the available material re: FL's final flight as was requested last week. Those who ever truly wanted it already know it, and I have not the time nor the inclination to waste on those who only want to denigrate research they won't do for themselves. Maybe later if I get in the mood.

Stephen

[stephen]

Hi Vic:

It will not die a silent death, and yes, I remember the hard work that everyone put into it. I have not heard a single word from any French authority on the topic, though Billy did mention it to the French ambassador (I believe) a couple of weeks ago. As you recall, it was early in the spring when this thing got rolling... I spend about 130 days per year on the road either driving or announcing races, mostly between April and November. I just flew in from Tokyo last night (Winston West stock cars at the Twin Ring Motegi, Dec 11, Speedvision, 3 pm eastern for race fans) and am suffering from a major case of jet lag. So my off season is about to begin, and work on the memorial, the Frey report and my next trip to France will soon get a boost.

No, it will not die a silent death... but I have always figured this and the Frey report to be long term projects. Thanks for the inquiry.

Also, I have decided not to go to the effort of posting the available material re: FL's final flight as was requested last week. Those who ever truly wanted it already know it, and I have not the time nor the inclination to waste on those who only want to denigrate research they won't do for themselves. Maybe later if I get in the mood.

Stephen

[Vin]

That is a pity , Stephen. You have been so definite about the shootout and strafing. Billy H says they did not occur and that they are the invention of later writers. Billy H appears willing to debate the issue and has directed a number of posts to you which remain unanswered. Quite a few contributors to this forum appear to believe that these events did take place, no doubt confirmed in their belief by your firm statements based upon your standing as a Luke researcher. In fairness, you ought restrain your enthusiasm for the shootout and strafing and the conclusions you draw from them until you satisfactorily address the matters raised by Billy H.


Vin

Greetings Vic: The French consul-general in NY has written a letter to the mayor of Murvaux regarding the installation of a suitable plaque in the town, on the old foundation. This is going to be an American operation, namely a Forum operation. There are previous threads that explain what is going to happen. I have offered to give a dollar from the sale of each September Rampage to this memorial fund, but to date only one Forumite has responded. As soon as we get some money in the fund, we can have a new plaque made: Skinner estimates that the installation could take place in the spring or summer. VBR, Billy H/11/22/99.

Greetings Vic: The French consul-general in NY has written a letter to the mayor of Murvaux regarding the installation of a suitable plaque in the town, on the old foundation. This is going to be an American operation, namely a Forum operation. There are previous threads that explain what is going to happen. I have offered to give a dollar from the sale of each September Rampage to this memorial fund, but to date only one Forumite has responded. As soon as we get some money in the fund, we can have a new plaque made: Skinner estimates that the installation could take place in the spring or summer. VBR, Billy H/11/22/99.

[stephen]

For the 7,419th time:

Luke fired multiple shots with his sidearm at German troops with the intent of hitting them.

Any other statements or speculations are attributable to Vin, not me. That simple fact is supported by 14 residents in the citizens' affidavit, 4 witnesses who repeated that statement in the Frey report, the son of a witness who told his story at the Champlain Fighter Museum and simple logic, and not a single eyewitness even attempts to deny it in any way. You may debate whether or not the Germans fired back, whether or not Luke even came close to hitting any of them, whether or not he made strafing run, the type, timing and nature of his supposed wound, the serial number on his SPAD and the color of shoe laces he was wearing, but, for the 7,420th time...

Luke fired multiple shots with his sidearm at German troops with the intent of hitting them.

And neither Billy nor I have taken the extensively defined stances you suggest, nor do he and I have any sort of disagreement that I am aware of on the topic. Sometimes I wonder why I bother writing this over and over again.

[Vin]

1 - The "Affidavit"

The undersigned, living in Murvaux, Department of the Meuse, certify to have seen on the 29th of September, 1918, toward evening an American aviator followed by an escadrille of Germans in the direction of Liny, descend suddenly and vertically toward the earth, then straighten out close to the ground and fly in the direction of Briers Farm, where he found a German captive balloon which he burned. Then he flew toward Milly where he found another balloon which he also burned in spite of incessant fire directed toward his machine. There he apparantly was wounded by a shot from rapid fire cannon. From there he came back over Murvaux and still with his guns he killed six German soldiers and wounded as many more. Following this he landed and got out of his machine, undoubtedly to quench his thirst at the stream. He had gone 50 yeards when seeing the Germans come toward him still had the strength to draw his revolver to defend himself. A moment after he fell dead following a serious wound he received in the chest.

Leaving aside its doubtful probative value, It does not even say he fired a shot !!

2 Billy H 13 November

"I never made a statement about this, but I did put the two affidavits frrom the townspeople who were there. The 1919 affidavit and the 1962 affidavit were signed by the same people. This last was taken by a person named Royal Frey, now deceased, and formerly a fighter pilot (WWII) who was stationed at the American fighter base at Etain (about 5 miles from the Verdun field that FL lofted himself toward Murvaux. Frey visited the sites of all our bases on the Western front and charted their location by latitude and longitude. After he retired, he became a curator at Wright-Patterson; after he died they placed his name on a marble bench near the entrance grounds. He wrote an article (1970 AAHS) about Luke that challenged, not Luke, but those writers who claimed he had a shootou, which is to say a mutual exchange of gunfire. In the 1962 statement, the Germans came at Luke from two directions, reached the plane, which was 75 meters from the creek, saw the trail of blood leading to the creek, from which Luke fired; then fell dead. THe signatories said that the Gs wanted to take Luke alive; that they did not shoot him but that he was dead when they approached the creek. They also said that Luke did not strafe the town. Whether, he did those two things, strafe the town and have a shootout, or not-Does that diminish him in your eyes? Figlio mio, you've got to realize that those two events were not reported by Luke…"

Does not say fired at Germans - Does say Germans did not fire !!

"Luke fired multiple shots with his sidearm at German troops with the intent of hitting them."

Where is the evidence ?

I have never speculated on what happened. I do not care. I query the evidence and cannot see how you can draw the conclusions you do from the Murvaux "affidavit".


Vin

[stephen]

1. The original affidavit does indeed imply that Luke fired... or we must conclude that he drew his weapon as a sign of peace and tranquility.

2. The Frey report does indeed specifically state that Luke fired shots, and claims his motivation was strictly defiance. Read it entirely in "Rampage" before further comments, please.

3. Quoting Billy with emphasis added... "saw the trail of blood leading to the creek, FROM WHICH LUKE FIRED; then fell dead." Read what you wrote. You're answering your own questions.

4. All fourteen original eyewitnesses saw Luke draw his sidearm; four of them still insisted 44 years later that Luke fired shots at the Germans looking for him; and the son of a witness at the Champlain Fighter Museum stated not only that Luke was seen firing but the Germans returned fire with automatic weapons (although this particular witness cannot now be confirmed and is weak evidence when viewed independently, it does corroborate accounts of known eyewitnesses).

There is very little actually known about this incident, but what is known and agreed upon by what little evidence we have is that Luke fired shots at German soldiers with the intent of hitting them. He most likely couldn't hit the ocean on a clear day under the circumstances... there likely was not a lengthy exchange of gunfire... he may have never made a strafing run... and I'm sorry if it sounds too dramatic or movie-like to suite your tastes. But the fact remains that Frank Luke died with his Colt .45 blazing, and the burden of proof is not on me.

[Vin]

1. Imply ! The opinion of an observer as to the motive of a third person. You have to be joking. This is really believing what you want to believe stuff.

2. The author of “Rampage” said on this forum that the shot (if any) may have been to attract attention. It is an opinion as to motive too but as valid as the “they’ll never take me alive” myth.

3. Billy says “from which Luke fired” he does not say add “at the German soldiers” His assumption of motive is that the shot (if any) was to get help !

4. “All 14 witnesses saw Luke draw a weapon” That is a blind act of faith. A statement written by an unknown and in an unspecified language, apparantly signed by 14 persons of indeterminate association with the statement. Where were they all standing ? What could they see ? Did all 14 see exactly the same thing ? I saw one reference to one of the witnesses being 4 years old !. Are there 14 statements ? The “evidence” 43 years later is interpreted by Billy, who has committed himself to writing, and by Frey, who was there, conducting the interviews, 28 years ago, leads these two to conclude that the shootout is a myth concocted by writers subsesquent to Luke’s death.

The son of a “witness” ? You must be joking. That is about as unreliable as you can get. All the son can say is what his father/mother allegedly told him. Classic heresay .

“...although this particular witness cannot now be confirmed and is weak evidence..” Weak ! No evidence at all.

“..and when viewed independently, it does corroborate accounts of known eyewitnesses..” What known eye witnesses ? What did they say ? An eye witness who makes an independent statement, subject to testing of his/her evidence under cross examination, is one thing. A bunch of persons allegedly signing a statement prepared by a third person, possibly in a language that they do not understand, is another. The more contemporaneous a statement, the more believable.

“There is very little actually known about this incident” Dead right, but that does not stop you and others from carrying on as if the shootout was fact.

“...but what is known and agreed upon by what little evidence we have is that Luke fired shots at German soldiers with the intent of hitting them...” Agreed upon! Billy H and, apparantly, Frey, both dispute this.

“... there likely was not a lengthy exchange of gunfire...” where is the evidence that there was ANY exchange of gunfire.

“.. he may have never made a strafing run...” Why do you concede this when the Murvaux “Affidavit” says he killed 6 German soldiers on a strafing run ?

“... . But the fact remains that Frank Luke died with his Colt .45 blazing...” Fact ? That is not what the Murvaux “Affidavit” says. There is no evidence that this is a “fact”; at all.

“... and the burden of proof is not on me...” It certainly is. If you assert a fact and it is called into question, the burden of proof is on you.

In all this is that there are no facts. There is implication, assumption, reliance upon “evidence” that even Judge Judy would laugh at, and wishful thinking.


Vin