GOGS patronized??

[Billy_Bishop]

Recently, I was "accused" of patronizing a group of distinguished people known here affectionately as the "GOGS", or "Gods Of Grub Street".

I looked at the post or posts that the "person" (and I use the term loosely) accused me of being patronizing in. It seems all I did was use their work as a source.

And I do indeed view the work done by the GOGS as a great source of information. However, I think even they would agree that while their's is probably among the best work done in the field so far, it is not yet the last word on WWI aviation history.

And I'm also just as certain that most, if not all the "GOGS" would admit that not all of the original sources of WWI aerial information have been found, or exhausted.

AND, as some others have already discovered, there are records of WWI aerial combat and it's results which will never be found, due to either acts commited in the closing stages of WWI, interwar incidents, and the devastation of WWII.

Still, I view almost any work coming from the Publishers of Grub Street as one of the most important sources of info we are likely to see for now, or anytime in the near future. And I hope they have continued success in their efforts to gather more of the disappearing information that tells us about WWI.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Russell]

Al.

I totally agree, that is the fun of it. Something keeps turning up all the time to add to things. For example look at the difference between the Zenses of MFJ 2 claims in Above the lines and Jasta War Chronology. As one of the WWI Grub Street authors, the objective is to keep learning all the time.

Hi Russell,

Thank you for responding to this thread. I was the one who felt that your work was being patronized by this particular individual. While I also agree that the Grub Street books are not the final word in WWI aviation, it certain is the best that we have at the moment and that its credibilty and meticulous research is beyond reproach. In any case, your work speaks for itself.

The real agenda of these particular threads is an ongoing discussion in the Forum of the dubious career of William Avery Bishop. I, being on the side of the detractors often use your work in my arguments.

In Above the Trenches you are able to identify with some definity, 33 of 61 Mannock confirmed victories - 40 of McCudden's 57. Why do you think it is that in all your research, you can only identify possibly 2 of Bishop's supposed 72 kills? Why do you think that is? In your Bio of Bishop in this same book the authors state "the veracity of many of Bishop's claims have been the subject of controversy for many years".
Although the author's decline to comment further, do you have any personal observations.

On page 221 of Bloody April ..... in the discussion of a Fonck action of Sept 26, 1918, the Grub Streey authors note, " despite the dubious nature of some of Fonck's claims this day, his overall performance far outstrips the other top scorers, Bishop and Rickenbacker. many of the latters claims were out of controls, probably out of control, and forced to land, often while he was out alone - just like Fonck and especially Bishop! Fonck's because of the stricter French confirmation system were at least visible (supposedly) from the ground. Upon reflection, it seems that all three were overcome with ambition, especially as the number two men of all three countries - Mannock (not forgetting Mc Cudden), Guynemer, and Luke were all very accurate claimers." Any thoughts here?

In Jasta War chronology, page 40, March 31, 1917, credits Von Tuschek with his second victory, a Nieuport over Loos at 0900. The victim : Lt W.A. Bishop, A6769 60th squadron
RFC, OK. Al Lowe has told the Forum that I've fabicated the incident. Is this a typo in the book? The victory was also substantiated in the Nachrinblatt records for March 1917 in one of the last three issues of Over The Front. A further article on the life of von Tutschek stated that when this victory was called into question, it was sent through on the confirmation of Werner Voss
who witnessed the fight. Anything in your records to indicate that Bishop was indeed shot down this day?

Isn't it strange that even the most obscure pilots of the war- when they were fortunate enough to survive combat and shoot something down - often went to the lines to examine their handiwork yet there is no photographic eveidence that I know of for any of Bishop's 72 alleged victories. can you refer me to a pacture of Bishop standind next to a plane he shot down?

MvR, Matton and even McCudden were notorious for collecting momentos. Do you know of any Bishop donations to museums et all, of fabric, crosses, machine guns, compasses, or the like?

Have you ever read anything about Bishop's personal correspondence where you read, " shot down an Albatroos yesterday, pilot escaped unhurt, had him at mess, nice bloke." " shot down two-seater in line, pilot killed, observer tokk three in the legs, sent him a dozen cigars."

Any thoughts on the June 2, 1917, raid to nowhere?

I know I've asked you enough questions to merit
your $2500 seminar fee (LOL) but any light you could shed on this on Bishop's career would be greatly appreciated. I apoligize if it seems like I'm pinning you down but certainly your opinions as a historian and acamedition (sic) would be more meaningful than the ravings of two Forumities.

Your books are super, once again, thank you!

VBR,

Jasta 8

[Billy_Bishop]

Russell, Thank YOU!!

Now, if some would learn the difference between known facts, testimony, and supposition, we'd be set!

I know I've said this before, but I'll say it again, just in case anyone missed it.

IF ANYONE HAS 100% PROOF POSITIVE THAT BILLY BISHOP LIED, FALSIFIED HIS COMBAT REPORTS, MADE CLAIMS FOR VICTORIES THAT HE KNEW HE DIDN'T DESERVE, then I'll listen.

Until then, all you have is your opinion. If you want to state your opinion, that is fine. But don't try to present it as fact, nor even as the most likely set of occurances.

Thank you.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Ron_F]

jasta,
Ive found nothing in 60sq history book that states Bishop was shot down that day. 2/Lieut. F. Bower was listed as a casualty 31 mar 17 and died the next day of his wounds.
no mention of it in 'who downed the aces in ww1?' or in above the lines OR above the trenches. Bishops plane #at that time, starting 31 Mar til 8 apr 17 is A6769. History of 60 sq supports these A/c numbers. So, somewhere something is wrong. Just posting these for more info.

salute,
Ron F.

[Billy_Bishop]

Jasta 8, I'm going against my better judgement here, and replying to you directly.

First, I didn't know where you got your information from. If I had, I would not have commented on it the way I did.

Instead I would have said that this is likely one of those rare instances where a Grub Street book was wrong.

It's happened before. They've admitted it.

Since you have the Jasta War Chronology, and I don't (yet), perhaps you can say, was the Nieuport in question supposed to have been destroyed?? The reason I ask is, if Bishop was shot down on 31 March, 1917, and A6769 was destroyed, how come he was flying it 7 days later when he scored his 3rd and 4th victories?

Again, I'll restate, military records are not totally infallible. Perhaps the aircraft in question was A7669??

VBR,

Al Lowe

Al,

Here is the complete text of the entry from pp40
of the Jasta War Chronology:

31 March 1917

Obltn A v Tutschek B Nieuport Loos 0900 2 b.


b. Possibly A6769, No 60 Sqn, RFC, Lt WA Bishop
OK.


'The Sky Their Battlefield' by Henshaw only lists one loss for 31 March 1917, an FE2b.

Bishop is listed in TSTB as shooting down an Albatros D2 at 0730 am near Gavrelle.
Bishop is listed as OK in this entry, no smaller case ok (meaning the aircraft) is noted but the entry does go on to say he scored 6 more victories in this aircraft.

Sounds like a german OOC to me

Regards,

MDD

[Russell]

Gee whizz, where too start. I said all I wanted to say on Bishop in the bits and pieces cited in this thread. I do not know he did not do the aerodrome raid. The evidence points as a trend that its funny the Mannock, McCudden, Guynemer victims tend to be traceable, but that by no means is not proof. I am know much more wary of getting on the one side of it all. Norman Franks got canned by a German Aviation Historian, as distinct from a native born German, when Hermann Göring came out worse than Voss etc in the wUnder the guns book. I can tell you it was not deliberate it just happened. Personally I am waiting for my friend Mr Baileys French book to come out, as it then adds or eliminates the French to the fun. I too met WWI aces, the thing I remember from one nearly 90 at the time, was the frequency of his nightmares at the time and ever since. It was not fun. Last comment. A couple of years ago I went off to Canberra and read the FA 235 history. There are shot down and KIA, WIA and unhurt in that thet did not appear in the usual sources. It added a few two seater victims to Lobo Benbow, Andrews, McLanahan, Fellows, That leaves the history of 30 odd Schlastas and all the other FAA to go. At say 5 "unknown losses" per unit thats a fair few short. Maybe one day some more will turn up.

[Russell]

Gee whizz, where too start. I said all I wanted to say on Bishop in the bits and pieces cited in this thread. I do not know he did not do the aerodrome raid. The evidence points as a trend that its funny the Mannock, McCudden, Guynemer victims tend to be traceable, but that by no means is not proof. I am know much more wary of getting on the one side of it all. Norman Franks got canned by a German Aviation Historian, as distinct from a native born German, when Hermann Göring came out worse than Voss etc in the wUnder the guns book. I can tell you it was not deliberate it just happened. Personally I am waiting for my friend Mr Baileys French book to come out, as it then adds or eliminates the French to the fun. I too met WWI aces, the thing I remember from one nearly 90 at the time, was the frequency of his nightmares at the time and ever since. It was not fun. Last comment. A couple of years ago I went off to Canberra and read the FA 235 history. There are shot down and KIA, WIA and unhurt in that that did not appear in the usual sources. It added a few two seater victims to Lobo Benbow, Andrews, McLanahan, Fellows, That leaves the history of 30 odd Schlastas and all the other FAA to go. At say 5 "unknown losses" per unit thats a fair few short. Maybe one day some more will turn up.

Sorry for the spelling and grammar, I have had a shocker of a day and am very tired. Look forward to more constructive history