28.May 1916: French claims and German losses?

[rammjaeger]

The German General staff claimed on the 1st June 1916:
"The French report of the 29th May, 3.p.m., claimed that on 28.May [a Sunday - HT] five German aircraft were destroyed by French pilots AND artillery. We do no more deal with the correction of wrong enemy reports since a long time ... but in this case we remark that we did not lose an aircraft because of enemy action on this day and the whole last week [22.-28.May - HT].

Who has more detailed information about the French claims and (maybe) German losses for this day and can help me here?

Thank you very much

Hannes

[Billy_Bishop]

Unfortunately, I have little to shed on your question, yet I find it interesting that in June of 1916 the German General Staff would make the statement as in the quotes below:

"The German General staff claimed on the 1st June 1916:
"... We do no more deal with the correction of wrong enemy reports since a long time ... but in this case we remark that we did not lose..."

I find it interesting as several people have tried to convince me that various German reports called Bishop's raid of 2 June 1917 into question.

Perhaps the German General Staff decided to start commenting on what they perceived as "wrong enemy reports" again???

We now return you to your regular WWI aerial program.

VBR,

Al Lowe

Hello gentlemen !

These are the 5 French victories on 28 May 1916 :

- N 12 (Adj Lebeau, 1st victory) : 1 EA at Sainterne
- MF 55 (Sgt Rodde, pil., & Lt Bos, obs., 1st victory for both): 1 Fokker E between Bourgogne and Fresnes
- C 56 (S/Lt Delorme, pil., & Lt Barthe, obs., 1st victory for both): 1 Fokker in German lines
- DCA* (auto-canons): 1 EA North Avocourt (possibly a KG 4/KSt 21 crew KIA at Toter Mann, near Verdun : Hptm Georg Arntzen, KIA & Obltn Kurt von der Osten, WIA/DOW on 2 June 1916)
- DCA* (auto-canons): 1 EA at Forges

* : DCA means "Défense Contre Avions" (AA Artillery)

VBR
Christophe

From the forgoing we have "German Records" stating that there were no losses, while the French have a body and a POW who later DOW.

[rammjaeger]

Is there anybody out there possesing the necrology of Wilhelm Zickerick? Which losses is this list showing for this day?

For Sensibles: If fitting losses for some of the French claims can be found than it proves that the General stuff was lying but not the German loss records (Zickerick based on these documents). If pilot B. was shooting down such a lot of German fighters as he claimed (30 of the same typ in one string!??) than we should find more prove in German loss records - whatever the German General stuff claimed or said. Or did the Germans hate only B. and manipulated only loses caused by B. to make him look shabby decades later (unlike McCudden and Mannock)?

[Soderbaum]

Hptm Georg Arntzen was the pilot of the aircraft of KG 4 and it seems they came down in German lines. According to my notes Arnzten dowo on 2 June 1916 and v.d Osten was KIA.
If they had fallen over enemy lines or both the crew had Died directly the German presumly had counted it as a loss.
FAA 211 also lost an aircraft over the trenches within German lines at Sivry. This aircraft was reported that it must be "abmontiert". The crew Uffz Doberenz and Oblt Vahle was OK. The reason for the forced landings was reported at at break of the "Höhensteuers". Ref the book of FAA 211.
Delormes Fokker is in his Legion D`Honneur citation mentioned to go down in flames.
OTF gives Delormes gunner as a C Jobelin.
VBR
Gunnar

[Billy_Bishop]

IF pilot B. was lying, how come ONLY 1 out of at LEAST 24 claims that were witnessed were the GOGS able to match one German loss?

Sounds to me like the Germans might have been manipulating their records. As it has been pointed out by one of the GOGS in one of their books, Pilot "B" was not the exception, but rather the rule, as many pilots, many of whom are well known could not have many of their claims matched up with German losses.

However, having said that, I prefer to think that rather than manipulating records, many of them were simply either not reported as lost, as when a machine lands on the friendly side of the lines and the pilot isn't killed, or maybe only lightly wounded. This, doubtless could account for a portion of British claims that don't match German losses. Others were likely lost in the morass of the retreat of 1918, and the bombing of WWII which destroyed many of the German WWI air service records.

However, having said THAT, I now await the expected useless retort from a party that I need not mention who will ask..."IF the German records are so incomplete how come..."

Well shucks, if they're that complete, why the hell don't they confirm EVERYONE of McCudden's claims?????

sorry, that's what happens when you drink a 70/30 screw driver (70% vodka, 30% OJ)

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Barrett]

This is speculative, but it's possible that the French and Germans had different "cutoff" times for reporting losses and other events. In other words, "28 May" could run from, say, 8 or 11 PM one day to the same time the next. I've heard the Brits used such a system. Whether late arriving info would be "back filled" or simply lumped into the next reporting period I dunno.
Just FWIW.

[Darryl]

Hi Barrett,

I seem to recall, (at work = no books) that the Brits used a 1600 cutoff. The 'writeback' to the previous day did or did not happen according to the whims of the clerk concerned as far as I can tell. Given that 'daylight action' continued until 2000 or 2200 at some times of year it is not hard to see that there is an instant potential for problems. I use a rule that I look at three days (one before, the day and one after) when trying to match claims and losses. This is a long way around but gives a good return for effort. When matched with map references and Jasta/Squadron locations at the time it gives reason to question a lot of the GOGS 'who got whom' assumptions. I might add that this is not a criticism of GOGS, I have the luxury of looking at a limited number of days etc, not the whole war!!

BTW, if ANYBODY can tell me who shot down
A. Hurrle on 30/01/18 I would love to hear it, can't find Lavergny(nie?) Ferme anywhere on the maps I have.

[rammjaeger]

The cutoff-time was in general 1800 (exceptions occure).

Dear Al,
you are still not answering my question. Strange enough if the British Ace of the Aces is unable to find, to identify and to destroy enemy double seaters despite the fact that the majority of German aircraft were double seaters.
AND I am not willing to discuss the enormous amount of British overclaiming again. It seems also strange that the verification of so many victories of McCudden(Why are you believing he was 100% right with his claims?)is possible but impossible - even in the same period of time - if we come to Bishop.

PS: Did you ever see or study a original German source for your Bishop defension? Which one?