German combat losses in 1914?

[rammjaeger]

Until now I saw never offical numbers about the German losses to air combat (only a hand full) and artillery and groundfire in 1914. Sometimes losses of 1914 and 1915 are added in one number.

I found ca 250 frontline aircraft were replaced in 1914. The overwhelming majority was removed from the files because of accidents, bad weather, transport damages or exchanged because of obsoletness (Taube-types). Other aircraft were lost because of (French and Russian) ground attacks or accidents in action. The number of aircraft lost in first air combats or by artillery and ground fire is not clearly visible. Sometimes the number of lost airmen is given for a battle but not the number of lost aircraft in combat.

I have the feeling that a high percentage of combat losses is hidden in the number of accidents or crashs in 1914 (could be the same for the other side too). I think also artillery and rifle fire was more efficent than assumed because of the low flight altitudes in the first month of war. Who has some hints or ideas to find more precise numbers for 1914?

[Reinout]

Hannes,

The reports to the chief of the Fliegertruppe should tell something of the breakdown, like "250 aircraft had to be replaced, 46 of them due to air combat and...", right? It is conceivable that those reports no longer exist, of course, but if Major Siegert wanted to do his job well, than he had to have a decent understanding of air operations and that includes knowing where losses stem from - to remedy the situation!

That is a hint, not much more I can tell you. You might be looking for a ghost!

Kind regards,

Reinout

Don't forget: many of those losses were caused by "friendly fire". Some pilots describe the "bad time" when not only the enemies shot at ones aircraft, but the comrades, too

[rammjaeger]

Moritz,

thats a really tough problem. I found an German paper article claiming that "French aircraft" flew over Chemnitz! Another report in August 1914 demanded to stop all the crazy shooting against unknown aircraft!

Reinout,
the original sources are maybe often lost but sometimes later articles or books quotated the lost files - otherwise I would not know about the number 250 which comes from the 8.Sonderband of the Reichsarchiv/Kriegswissenschaftliche Abteilung (1943). Additional I repeat again: nobody checked really all aviation-related files - otherwise I would not be so often the first studying the files in our local archiv (a special page shows the other users). Sometimes the right key-word, method or some help of others (e.g. of the Forum) is needed to get certain info. Some time ago I thought there are no more files existing with the names of the German pilots and observers trained by the military before the war but that was completely wrong.

And if the summarising sources are really lost than we have to make this dammned puzzle game: One was lost here, one there ... I am not really expecting that somebody is able to tell me the right number but little tips or hints help often to uncover a source.

Regards

Hannes

[Soderbaum]

Hannes,
I agree with the fact that some aircraft which
were reported as crashes indeed had been in combat
or hit by AA. First the time factor which could
meen that the aircraft flown a while after combat
and then fell down/Forced landed and smashed etc.
Then the weather aspect, it could be difficult to
se, escicially in the autum, what happened up in the sky.
In these two cases it is assumed that the German
crew not was available to report what infact had
happened.
It could also be the simple reason that the crew
infact did not know they had been hit by enemy..
It is a fact that many crews doing their job in the air could sometimes be unaware what happen
around them..
Its even a possiblity that the crew did not tell the true reason for their crash
A other reason which You have pointed out were
that the many aircraft flew rather low this stage
of the War, and if they were near front lines or
even over own lines, many took a change to hit you...friend or enemy
But it was also some real chrashes near the
front line which were claimed by the enemy without
hitting the actual aircraft, because they thought
they were responsible.
Its possible many other reason to add if you make
a deep investigation.
It is quite certain that the German infact had some "heavy" losses in 1914. I think more than the allied side.
That is a GOOD reason not to publish it..!
Eberhardt list of killed pilots/observers 1914 is indeed long for beeing that period.
The bad situation for the German did not changed
until summer 1915..in my opinion
I have also tried to find out both German losses and victories for 1914. I tried to compare the annual reports with the reports given by the magazine Flugsport who gived the victories/losses
in the way 3 and 4 years of air War. as from August 1914 to July 1917 and 1918. The problem was
i did not have the exact annual report for 1915 and not all monthly report for this Year.
Another problem was if the Flugsport used the same
basic statistics as the annual/monthly reports.
When i counted this way the results was not good
enough because an discrepence in 10 losses for 1915 or a month in 1917 had a to high influence for the result for 1914.
A guess from me is that the German lossed over 20
aircraft 1914 due enemy action. Less than 10 of these due air combat. The rest by AA and Force
Landing within enemy lines.
I have only about 10 victories for the German this
year, and has until now only one recorded one as
falling in air combat.
No good stats..!
But perhaps there exist some stats which can verify another result...I really hope someone out there/here has the an answer..
VBR
Gunnar

[Michael]

A thought has occurred to me which might help with identifying some losses.

I would think that shooting down an aircraft would be sufficiently unusual that it would rate a mention in a British or Commonwealth unit's War Diary, and might make it into a regimental history.

I have a few such histories, but no access to War Diaries.

Michael

[rammjaeger]

Hallo Gunnar,

I agree with your conclusions - 1914 and the first time of 1915 were bringing a hard time for the German Air Force. In October and November the Germans lost on the Eastern Front (only) at least five aircraft because of ground or artillery fire. The 8.Sonderband mentioned losses on 2. (FFA17), 3. (FFA35) and 10.October (FFA31) and 22.November (FFA15). Other sources show the loss of the aircraft of Sielaff and Barth on 18.(?).November.
Additional I was reading other stories about combat losses on the East Front but it is often hard to determine the right date (1914 or 1915).
Do you have some additional losses in the East for 1914?

[Soderbaum]

Hannes,
very interesting informations given by you.
2 Oct.1914 I havent the name of this crew from
FFA 17. But I have a note that early in War the
observer Lt.dR Heinrich Barth served in this unit
Could this be the same Barth for the incident on
18? Nov 1914 ? I have seen the name Sielaff somewhere to, but forgot where at the moment.
Oblt Kurt Student 5 vict served as a pilot in this
unit in 1914..
3 Oct.1914 Neither here I have crews name of
FFA 35. This is a unit where I have only two names
for the first two Years. One was Flg. Paul Leim who was one of the original pilots, and flew until EOW, at last with Jasta 84.
The incident on 10 Oct 1914 of FFA 31 involved the later Ace and Jasta commander Lt Hans Gandert.
The aircraft fell over Russian lines but Gandert
escaped three Days later. Eberhardt reported that
the pilot Lt Guenther Hass of this unit was killed on 11 Oct 1914 at Mrzczonow. Were they
flewing together and who was the pilot? Was Hass
killed when he also tried to escape?
For the incident on 22 Nov 1914 I have no information, but some with interest in Russian Air Force ought to have the reports on these incidents, which presumly also were mentioned in Russian newspapers...
Some additional losses from Eberhardt:
16 Oct 1914 KI Sgt Adolf Laudon at Rathenow
19 Oct 1914 KI Uffz Bruno Langer at Uszczonow
2 Nov 1914 Dowo Lt Kurt Lau at Now Radowsk
3 Nov 1914 KI B.Mt Alfred Troost at Lukau
" KI Ob.Mt Reinhold Klette "
8 Nov 1914 KI B.Mt Bruno Hoffmann S Gruenau
27 Nov 1914 KI Lt Wilhem Wölfert(O) FFA 45
at Pradla
30 Nov 1914 KI Oblt Heinrich Dennert(O) FFA 37
N Lowicz.
If you mentioned some other incident I can perhaps
find if it occurred 1914 or 1915.
VBR
Gunnar

[rammjaeger]

Yes Michael, they would write the events in their war diaries - if they were really realising their own success. My problem is I have no access to such sources too. So I have to go the other way.

Gunnar, I guess you were reading about Sielaff/Barth in the Plm-book of the famous-infamous Zuerl but the story was already written during the war ("Das fliegende Schwert" and other sources). The 8.Sonderband indicates a forced landing for the evening of the 19.November which was preventing the early arriving of an important message - that seems to fit to Sielaff/Barths way over the lines.

The loss of the 22.November was a forced landing (crashing aircraft, crew unharmed) of Oberleutnant Ladewig and Hauptmann Geibel.

The quotated losses in Rathenow, south of Gruenau and in Lukau sound more like trainings accidents in the area of Berlin and Brandenburg!

(I am looking for the other events on the East front and think about how to post the unclear events of 1914/15 without creating everytime a new own thread.) Later more.

Regards

Hannes

[rammjaeger]

I forgot to say Ladewig/Geibel forced landed near Lowicz.