Max Immelmann

14 September 1999, 01:04 AM

Hello,

I was looking at

Max Immelmann's victory list. All of his victory's were bombers. So was he as a good pilot at made out? I mean bomber would be easy prey. I may be worong.

Ben

Reinout · 14 September 1999, 03:15 AM

Howcome Immelmann downed so many bombers? The easy answer is: there were hardly any fighters around when Max started amassing victories. He shot down a Bristol Scout for his 15th victory in May 1916, so he had at least one fighter. It turned out to be one of his easiest victories.

Immelmann began scoring in 1915 when there were only a handful of "fighter" detachments on the Allied side and none on the German side. It is only natural that he encountered few fighters. Furthermore, shooting down bombers/spotters is much more important to the effort on the ground. It wasn't so easy in 1915 and 1916 as one would expect, if it were, there would have been many many more aces. In effect, only a handful men of all participating nations reached double figures and Immelmann was the second man ever to reach 10.
Bombers easy prey? Debatable but I would grant you that FE's and BE's were more vulnerable than their German counterparts (excluding the Aviatik CI) and yes those "easy" marks made up the bulk of Immelmann's score. However, we cannot hold Immelmann responsible for encountering such aircraft; it was not his decision to send them up. It was his job to bring enemy planes down and he was very good at it. Also note that Immelmann actually had 17 victories. His last two were scored on the 18th of June, his final day alive. As a result of his fatal action that night, the two bombers that had crash-landed in German territory (in other words, despite overwhelming evidence) were never claimed by Max and nobody apparently bothered to submit a claim on his behalf. So he has 17 actual victories of which 15 were officially confirmed. He also had two or three unconfirmed victories. If luck had been on his hand, he might well have had a chance to be the first airman ever to reach 20!

In comparison with other aces of Germany, Britain and France, Immelmann does not have a disproportionately large number of bombers versus fighters (I recall Immelmann having another fighter victory along with the Bristol Scout). For instance Boelcke, Guynemer, Nungesser and Navarre almost exclusively scored against bombers in the months preceding the creation of the Jagdstaffeln (a time which Immelmann never witnessed). Boelcke's first 19 victories included 3 fighters if I'm not mistaken. Of the eventual 12 (?) fighters he was to down, most of them fell in Sep/Oct, when the air war saw a new escalation. The same can be said about the three French aces just mentioned.

To answer your question, no he was not overrated because he shot down "easy prey", in fact he may be underrated as his chivalrous conduct was overlooked often because he displayed such arrogance. He certainly had character flaws and I don't know whether I would like him as a person, but he was an exquisite scout pilot and the impact he had on the air war should not be downplayed.

Kind regards,

Reinout

Soderbaum · 14 September 1999, 06:04 AM

Immelmanns 11th confirmed victory on 13 Mars 1916 was a Bristol Scout 4678 from 4 sq.
So he probably had two scouts in his records.
VBR
Gunnar

rammjaeger · 14 September 1999, 06:47 AM

Hi Ben,

do not forget that the development of aircraft and Airwarfare was still on a very low stage in 1915/16. Franz Immelmann mentioned in his book about his brother that a fighter of 1918 had six times more firepower than the first of Max´s Fokker! Problems with the guns and aircraft occured more frequently in 1915/16. Especially you needed more time to find (!) an enemy because the number of aircraft in the air was low! Immelmann had to fly over 400 missions within 13 month to achieve his victories! That means he flew between 40 and 50% of all sorties of his unit! No wonder if the fighter ace Böhme was stating in one letter to his girl friend that Max was already down with his nerves before his last flight. Last but not least: His victories are proven!!!

Soderbaum · 14 September 1999, 07:21 AM

Hannes and Ben
I have both the original Immelmann book and the
book by his brother from 1934.
Both sources seems vague about his second victory
both regarding actual date and the identify of the
enemy aircraft. It was reported as a french 2s
which fell over enemy lines at Souchez in the evening. In different articles during the Years
I have seen different dates most of them says
26 of August. The German Heeresbericht(HB) for this day does not verify this date. But for exampel: for September 1915 the Heeresbericht only mentioned about 25 of the total of 30 victories...
I have also seen the date 9 September for his
second victory. But also for this day the HB is
silence. Is this victory really verified in some
source ??
Hope some has a clue..
VBR
Gunnar

Soderbaum · 14 September 1999, 09:46 AM

Excuse me Ben
The Bristol 1s victory on 13 March 1916 was apperently his 10th victim. He scored two victories this day and according to british report
this fits the number more correctly according to
time/location given by them. I read his book where he writes that the 11th was a Bristol..
Sorry
Source STB
Gunnar

14 September 1999, 01:12 PM

Max Immelmann was a fighter pilot.
His JOB was to shoot down bombers & recon planes.
Next question...

Paul Forster · 14 September 1999, 08:31 PM

Immelmann shot down two Bristol scouts.On March 13,1916 he shot down a Bristol from 4 Squadron for his tenth victory.On May 16 he got one from 11 Squadron for his 15th victory.He also shot down at least one ( probably 3 )FE2.Although a two-seater, the FE's performance was superior to the Eindecker Immelmann was flying.

Reinout · 14 September 1999, 10:35 PM

Dear all,

If you check the book reviews of this site, the book "Under the guns of the German aces" reveals that of Immelmann's 17 victories, 16 have been found and proven! An astonishingly high percentage of accuracy. Does anybody who has the book know which victory wasn't substantiated?

Kind regards,

Reinout

rammjaeger · 15 September 1999, 07:12 AM

Hello Gunnar,

I have both Immelmann-sources too and noticed the following: "Meine Kampfflüge" says the decisive letter was written on 27.August but in "Der Adler von Lille" you will see the given date is 11.September! What did

Max Immelmann report on the day "X"?
X-2:
Forced a twin-engined aircraft to land on the Allied side, together with Boelcke (unconfirmed).
X-1 (yesterday):
Two aircraft forced to land on the Allied side, Boelcke helped with the second. (both unconfirmed,

ATL mentioned only one unconfirmed)
Later: French (?? -HT) biplane shot down which was trying to attack Boelcke from behind. Pilot hit, helmet fell down.

If "Meine Kampfflüge" was right than the 2nd victory occured on 26th August. If "Der Adler von Lille" is right than the events were on 9th and 10th (2nd victory) September. Strange enough the GOGS decided in ATL to put the second victory on the 26.August but the other events on the 9th and 10th September!
Whatever the truth is Immelmann had 15+ proven victories if we consider also his last day!