A somewhat different MvR question

MvR achived legendary status in his own time and people are still talking about him to this day. Just look at the effect on today's culture, hundreds of books about him, foods named after him, many video games, while they may not have the title "Red Baron", what one hasn't challenged you to top the Baron's score or best him in combat?

I think that we all need heros/mentors to look up to. Why try to find out who shot the Baron down? I'm sure there's probably enough evidence to lead us to a smokeing gun. But still to this day the majority of the public or at least those who care don't know for sure who shot him down, and perhaps they don't want to know.

In my opinion, saying that so-and-so deffinatly shot MvR down takes away some of the legend that made him the historical figure he is today. In a way, it reduces him from his immortal status. He would still be a compelling figure that stands out from the rest, but not quite the same as he used to be.

Your thoughts?

[Rittm]

Hello Kojack,

As for those that know me on the forum, they all know that I have a very different point of view on the death of Manfred von Richthofen, the Red Baron. (I was shot in the back while standing outside of my plane.) You can read my point of view by viewing my webpage at www.pourlemerite.org/rittmeister/index.html you will need to go to the Rittmeister's memories and then to the section of Commaradiery and military memories.

As for how a hero dies, I am uncertain as to whether it makes a hero's legend any less. Boelcke was killed in a stupid accident but he is still revered highly by many people. Werner Voss was killed in a dramatic aerial battle and still thought to be a fascinating hero. Guynemer is still very admired in France and by those that like French pilots even though he simply disappeared one day. And I think it was George Patton that died from a stupid accident after the end of WWII, and he is still seen as a legendary American war hero. Joan of Ark was burned as a witch. Christ was cruxsified with common criminals. So I don't think the manner of death would truly diminish a hero's appeal. It is what the hero meant to the people and what he did. Was he or she a good person that served to the best of their ability? Some heroes of legendary status survived and died of old age, does that make them any less of a hero? No, I don't think so. There may be less mystery, but mystery doesn't make a person a hero.

Rittm

Kojack,
The dude was JUST a MAN! Capable of making mistakes, getting angry, petty jealousies and etc. JUST AS EVERYONE ELSE IS! I don't believe that any other Ace has ever been elevated to the status of an Immortal God! Who shot him down IS important because it dispels the confusion of distorted accounts that were never true, but have been purported to be the truth. Keep it all in context, he was a mere human who was good at his craft. He wasn't super human, he wasn't immortal, he wasn't a God. Geez, don't you guys ever learn?!
VBR,
Jim

Well as for me I would have loved to have a chance to shake his hand no matter how he died or who shot who.

Mark

to Jim "Ace": Don't tell me you've never had anyone you looked up to when you were a child? Someone you thought was the greatest person you had ever seen for what they did or had done? Perhaps a baseball player or other type of athlete? I'm sure Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin were heros to many after they had walked on the moon. The people I look up to are aviators, what is so wrong with that?

To Rittm: How he died is part of the legend. Not knowing who shot him down is one of the great mysteries and adds to the intrigue. He was such a great fighter pilot, yet now one knows for certain who killed him. Its like reading a book only to find that the last chapter is missing.

Kojack,
Yes, I looked up to my father, he was my hero. When I became older I learned some unflattering things about him, but came to grips with the fact that he is a human being. Take care that you aren't too crushed when you find out that your idol has clay feet. Keep it in perspective.
VBR,
Jim

Kojack: I sent my book on MvR to the Kommodore of the Richthofen Geschwader in Wittmund, Germany, asking his historian to add or subtract from it, but he wrote back that they were embarrassed because we told them more about the Red Baron than they knew (and he was their boy). Americans concentrate on MvR because there is so much of a data base on him, and not very much on our own flyboys from WWI. These are hard to research because there's not much data and it is hard to get. It took me a long time to get the right line on Frank Luke, but it resulted in the September Rampage, which tells his stoory, the story of the 27th Aero, the 1st Pursuit Group, and the Air Service. Flyers like Luke had a hard time getting there to fight in foreign planes; starting from ground zero they managed to do a credible job vs the GAF jastas who had the expertise...We went beyond a simple story of Luke's record, but told of his life, family, and showed exactly how the Air Service made the advance through the Hindenburg Line possible. We owe these boys some respect by way of remembrance...EOM/Bill Haiber/7/13/99.

Kojack: As Shakespeare put it in Julius Caesar: "The good men do oft lives after them; the evil is interred in their bones." And that is the only way to look at anyone. Millions of men were killed on the Western front and we will never know who killed who. It is analagous to the ancient Hebrew custom of stoning someone to death because no one would know whose stone was the killing stone. If you think of all of those 30 caliber slugs filling the skies, you have the same thing. What we ought to doing is more research into MvR's life, his home environment, the Prussian nation, and come up with more than the tale of someone who shot down 80 planes. Knnowing who killed MvR doesn't make him anyless of a hero, does it? EOM/BH/7/13/99.

[stephen]

What we really ought to do is take up a collection and buy his house at Schweidnitz while there's still something there to restore.

Two people were responsible for MvR's death. I'm sure Jim ACE will agree that primarily MvR has himself to blame for breaking his own rules and pursueing an enemy plane too close to the ground over enemy territory. That's the first person. Second person is of course the person Richthofen was persuing, Wilfrid May.

Tobias