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| 1999 Closed threads from 1999 (read only) |
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12 July 1999, 10:04 AM
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#1 (permalink)
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Forum Ace
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 988
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I know Mata Hari wasn't a WWI pilot , however she did have a fling with one or two of them so there's my link to bringing up a question about her here at the forum
Recently the Discovery-Civilization channel did a short bio on her. They reported that at her execution, all of the 12 sharpshooters hit her with bullets. And then afterwards a French officer witnessing her execution walked over and shot her in the head with his revolver.
Then the History International channel also broadcasted a biography about her. They reported that 9 of the 12 sharpshooters missed their target and her ultimate cause of death was a bullet to the heart. They mentioned nothing of any French officer sashaying over and shooting her as well.
Does anyone know which of these stories is more true?
Thanks in advance.
__________________
The most valuable of all talents is that of never using two words when one will do.
-- Thomas Jefferson
Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first. -- Ronald Reagan
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12 July 1999, 11:36 AM
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#2 (permalink)
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Sage emeritus
Join Date: Mar 1998
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 1,126
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I can't say for sure, which, if either, was correct.
British practice was to load one blank at random, so that the members of the firing party could always console themselves that maybe theirs was the unloaded one. I doubt that the French engaged in such niceties.
The officer would have been in charge, and would only have fired the coup de grace if the victim was still alive. I believe that a head shot would have been more usual, so if she was hit in the heart she wouldn't have needed another round.
I have somewhere a newspaper clipping from a few years ago where the French government awarded the Croix de Guerre to surviving veterans. One of them (name not given) was among those who received one. Several died of heart attacks at the news, and one refused it on the ground that they should have given him one back then.
__________________
Adjt. Antonin Dominique Barthélèmy Gautier
Médaille Militaire, Croix de Guerre - SPA 80
October 2, 1895-September 15, 1918
Mort pour la France en combat aérien.
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12 July 1999, 11:38 AM
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#3 (permalink)
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Sage emeritus
Join Date: Mar 1998
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 1,126
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One of the firing party, that is.
__________________
Adjt. Antonin Dominique Barthélèmy Gautier
Médaille Militaire, Croix de Guerre - SPA 80
October 2, 1895-September 15, 1918
Mort pour la France en combat aérien.
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12 July 1999, 12:13 PM
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#4 (permalink)
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Forum Ace
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: In the Great Miami Valley of the old Northwest Territory.
Posts: 565
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Amy
A&E Biography told the same story of 9 out of 12 marksmen missing her. They said also that she died of a bullet to the heart with no mention of a final coup de grace.
You have to remember the execution was carried out to cover up indiscretions by high ranking officers. These were the same people who, at one time, court martialed enlisted men for wearing the steel helmets they had been issued by the army. The grounds, cowardice in the face of the enemy.
Der Alte
__________________
Those who beat their swords into plowshares are now plowing for those who did not.
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12 July 1999, 04:05 PM
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#5 (permalink)
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Forum Ace of Aces
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: The American West
Posts: 4,809
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It's strictly trivia, but the concept of giving one blank round to the firing squad is of no consequence. Anybody who's fired one live round can tell the difference with a blank because there's no recoil. Best evidence is the old "Combat" TV series in which Cage, Littlejohn and the boys rip off 8 rounds from their Garands in 3 seconds without any muzzle rise.
Besides, blanks just don't strike me as a French thing to do...
__________________
You will not rise to the occasion: You will default to your level of training.
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12 July 1999, 05:53 PM
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#6 (permalink)
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Guest
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Dear Amy,
I once browsed thru a book about Mata Hari and re-
member a description of the execution scene. She
supposedly left her cell dressed only in a cloak,
which she let fall as she faced her executioners
(which may explain the high number of "misses"you
refer to).Still alive after the volley, a French
officer delivered the "coup de grace" by shooting
her in the temple with his pistol.Hope this is of
help to you.
G.E.J.
P.S. I also have some information on Josef Jacobs
and will research your question in the forum arch-
ives.
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12 July 1999, 07:36 PM
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#7 (permalink)
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Forum Ace
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 921
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Hi Amy,
Military History Magazine (no, I'm not going to give you MY opinion of it and get sued) recently did a bit spot on her. I will chase it up and see if I can get a copy off the friend who buys it. I believe he only buys it for the pictures!!*G*
regards
Darryl
__________________
Nunquam obliviscar
Not here are the goblets glowing,
Not here is the vintage sweet;
'Tis cold as our hearts are growing,
And dark as the doom we meet.
But stand to your glasses, steady!
And soon shall our pulses rise:
A cup to the dead already-
Hurrah for the next that dies!
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13 July 1999, 01:54 AM
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#8 (permalink)
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Forum Ace
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: USA. One Nation, Under Surveillance.
Posts: 2,672
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Read quite a bit about Mata Hari, which was not her name at all, and about the French intelligence officers who conspired for her execution (which much more closely resembled murder). She slept with men on an industrial scale and hoped her love links would come through to save her when she got in WAY over her head with a German officer in a lame, unauthorized spy scheme. She never betrayed the French in any way, but awkwardly put herself in such a position that no one could come to her rescue and remain politically untainted. The prosecutor admitted after the war that they didn't have enough evidence against her at her trial to "flog a cat." But then, with the mutinies and general paranoia of the time, alot of French people were getting shot.
At the execution, it is unlikely that she was hit by every soldier in the firing squad, some of whom were highly emotional. She was, however, hit directly in the heart. When the doctor on the scene (who had taken a liking to her personally) examined her slumping body for wounds, the captain of the guard called to see if she was dead or not. The doctor unbuttoned her blouse (she was indeed fully dressed) and a fountain of blood squirted from the pressure of her final heartbeats. The doctor turned away from the bloody mess and said "yes, she's dead!" to the captain in disgust. I am unaware of any head wound, and it would seem illogical after the doctor's proclamation.
There is one really excellent book about this topic that I've read thoroughly, which accessed files on the topic that were sealed for around 75 years. It's been awhile and I cannot remember the name of the book, but I might know it if someone suggested it.
__________________
There will never be concentration camps in America.
We'll call them something else.
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13 July 1999, 03:20 AM
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#9 (permalink)
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Forum Ace
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 921
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Margarethe Geertruide Zelle was born in Leeuwarden, The Netherlands 7/8/1876. Her mother died when she was young and her father pampered her until he went bankrupt then dumped her (such is life, kids)She married Campbell MacLoud after replying to a newspaper advert for a wife which he had placed as a joke. That all went fairly well, a dead child, a spot of wife beating and alchohol abuse (him) so she left him, got custody of the other child in 1902 or so, then dumped it in 1905 with relatives to become an Exotic Dancer. (and they say you need a happy childhood to be a well balanced person?) Skip the nudy dancing and move to a time when neither the Germans nor the French trusted her. The Germans sent a compromising message in a code they knew the French had broken and 'voila' Courts Marshal have the honour.
She was driven to the Chateau de Vincennes outside Paris and faced the firing squad wearing "a large straw hat, a corset, a stylish pearl-grey dress and silk stockings with fashionable shoes." She apparently refused the blind fold.
Nobody bothered to claim the body and she was sent the medical school for dissection. (there is a line there, but I am just not going to use it!!*G*)
All the above from MH, with cynicism added by yours truly
regards
Darryl
__________________
Nunquam obliviscar
Not here are the goblets glowing,
Not here is the vintage sweet;
'Tis cold as our hearts are growing,
And dark as the doom we meet.
But stand to your glasses, steady!
And soon shall our pulses rise:
A cup to the dead already-
Hurrah for the next that dies!
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15 July 1999, 02:43 PM
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#10 (permalink)
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Guest
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Speaking of female spies, does anybody know the real lowdown on Fraulein Doktor? There was a 1970s movie by Dino Delaurentiis but it probably took a lot of liberties with the facts. I have seen a book about 20th century spies and she wasn't mentioned.
The thing I remember best from the film is the gas masks for the uhlans' horses.
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