Richthofen questions?

Phil · 10 July 1999, 07:32 PM

I was wondering if anyone out there could help me with a few questions that I have been trying to answer for some time. I am an WWI aviation enthusiast who has been researching MvR for some time. This past May I got the chance to travel to Europe and visit the site where MvR was shot down as well as the many other historical sites around that area. I also was able to go to the IWM to see Richthofen's DrI 425/17 engine and the two small pieces of fabric from that plane the museum has on display. I am now interested in trying to travel to the other museums (RCMI toronto and Austraila) to see the other Richthofen artifacts on display. My first question is does anyone know of any where that one of the insignias off of 425/17 may be. I wrote to Norman Franks (a wonderful man to speak to about such questions) and he stated that RCMI Toronto had one of the insignias taken from MvR's plane and that another one was recently actioned in London. The problem is I have never seen a photograph of either of these examples and I don't know who bought the one in London (hopefully a museum so everyone can enjoy and research this item). If anyone out there has or is aware of photos of these pieces it would be great to know about them. Another question that I have been curious about is the wonderful collection of the late Pat Carisella. I was told that his daughter now has these items but I'm not sure. Anyone out there know? Lastly, the U.S. Airforce museum has a webpage that depicts a piece of fabric that is suposed to be from Richthefon's plane 425/17. The website is www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/early_years/ey4b-3.jpg. This example of fabric is not red and therefore could not be from Richthofen's last plane. Does anyone know the background on this item and why the Airforce would put out false info (as a former serviceman I know the military can be screwed up at times but there is just to much data out there to prove that Richthofen's aircraft was indeed red). Finally, I am new to this forum and I do not mean to ask questions that have already been discussed so please excuse me if this is the case. Thanks for reading and thanks for such interesting dialogue on this forum.
Phil

11 July 1999, 01:14 AM

Hi Phil and welcome,

I'm sure others will come forward who know more on this subject than I.

What I can tell you, is that I have looked at the small piece of fabric on display at USAFB and can't recall the color. But that is not to say, simply because it may not be red means that it isn't from 425/17. As you know, the plane would have come from the Fokker factory painted in the regular issue sheme, and then later at the front the plane would've been overpainted in red. Often the over paint flaked off, revealing the original under color. Of course the insignias would have still remained black.

The insignia from the Doctor's office was first authenticated by Alex Imrie, (noted aviation historian), who lives north of London. He took many photographs of the fabric piece and made several drawings. If I recall correctly the fabric piece was sold to a private individual in the United States, I believe in Atlanta, Georgia.

That's all I can tell you for now, I'm not a MvR expert.

Best,
Dave Watts

11 July 1999, 02:20 AM

Hello,

Just a thought about a few things. They are just ideas, not fact, but maybe the piece of aircraft fabric on display by the USAFM is from a part of his crate that wasn't red. If not, possibly the fabric's color may have depreciated over time?
Just a thought.

Danke.

Montag

Billy_Bishop · 11 July 1999, 07:17 AM

According to various depictions I've seen, MvR's triplane was not red all over. While some have depicted it so, most have shown it to be red and green. But it could also be as Dave said, over time the paint could have flaked off the fabric.

VBR,

Al Lowe

11 July 1999, 08:11 AM

I think that Frank's book "Under the Guns of the Red Baron..." has photo's of both pieces you refer to. If you can find a copy of Alex Imrie's "The Fokker Triplane", it has photos of 425/17 before and after the modifications to the crosses. Also 152/17, which is the partly green bird that I think Al is referring to is shown after also being overpainted completely red. I have never been clear as to whether 425/17 retained it's turquoise bottom.

11 July 1999, 08:16 AM

One more thing: There is (so I have heard) enough fabric purported to be from 425/17 out there to cover at least a dozen triplanes. There is a piece in the Kirkpatrick Center in OKC that is about 1.5 x 1.5 inches that is a very dark red.

Phil · 11 July 1999, 08:55 AM

Mike-Thanks for the info on the books. I have Alex Imerie's book on Triplanes but I don't have Under the Gun's of the Red Baron. I'm going to have to get it. Amy- I've also read the account about MvR's body/skull question. That's a great question!! I hope someone out there has an answer for us. Everyone thanks for the information!
Phil

Phil · 11 July 1999, 09:28 AM

Mike mentioned the photo of 425/17 (the one before the plane received the Balkenkreuze insignia)in Alex Imrie's book The Fokker Triplane. In this photo one can see the plane's underbelly. Although some of those old photographs are not clear this one clearly shows that the entire plane is red. Still one can debate whether that photo truely is of 425/17 but I'm of the opinion that it is (mainly because of the reputation of Alex Imrie as a great historian). I have seen this same photo in other books labeled as a different aircraft. I don't believe that the piece of fabric in the Air Force museum is of a section of 425/17 that wasn't red but it could be (as others in the forum stated) a piece in which the paint has chipped or faded off. Again thanks to everyone for their insight on these questions.
Phil

11 July 1999, 01:48 PM

Phil
I'm also a"Richthofen Cultist" Ican address your point re:USAF fabric' I' been to both WWI Fly-ins held at the museum' the fabric piece off MvR Triplane may be incorrect on their on line site. I have before me a photo I took of the sample, it is indeed red. The donor of the sample iiwas an American flier who flew for 84 Sqdn His name was Lt. Ray Watts. I have an audio interview with Ray made in 1963. What he says is very interesting, He viewed MvR body in a "Chapel" at Bertangles, and talked with members of 209 Sqdn also 3 Sqdn RAFC. what he stated then as been borne out by later writers, Crisella and Franks.

Bob