Fonck, 74 or 75 kills?

7 July 1999, 01:37 PM

I have a vague recollection of reading a long time ago that Fonck's first kill was actually scored by his gunner while he was piloting a two-seater. But I can't find the place I read this and I'm wondering whether I really read it at all or whether I'm confusing him with some other pilot. Does anyone recall coming across details of Fonck's first kill?

The reason I ask is that, if his gunner actually shot this plane down, I don't think he should have it included in his total. And that could be significant because in his book `Air Aces' Christopher Shores says Bishop's score is sometimes quoted as being 75.

In other words, there seems to be some evidence that Bishop was the real Allied ace of aces.

Both of these pilots have had their totals questioned by any number of people and I don't want to rehash that subject. As Shores said, Bishop was by no means alone when it came to that sort of thing.

My question is simple: Did Fonck get credit for a gunner's victory that should be subtracted from his total?

7 July 1999, 01:39 PM

In Vietnam both guys in the Phantoms got credit when a Mig was shot down, not just the pilot. So maybe Rene should have got credit even if he didn't do the actual shooting.

7 July 1999, 01:41 PM

What about Robert Leckie? He got credit for two Zepps, once when he pulled the trigger as a gunner and once when he flew alongside as the pilot and let his gunners shoot it down. Foncks total should stay at 75.

Barrett · 7 July 1999, 03:42 PM

Pilots and gunners shared equally in victory credits in most air arms during the Great War. The exception apparently was the RFC/RAF in which pilots got credit for their gunners' victories but not vice-versa.
Nobody said it was fair.

Hans · 7 July 1999, 04:04 PM

Perhaps, rather than removing the victory from his score, it should be noted such. Although some of these RFC scores are kind of rediculous in their shared victories.

It all depends on the weather. If the weather was foul, and the piloting more essential, Fonck should take at least half of the credit. However, in fine weather, perhaps it was more reliant upon the gunner, and Fonck should not recieve credit.

PeterL · 7 July 1999, 04:35 PM

Guynemer's first victory, and possibly his second, were also shared with the back seat. Mecanicien Guerder being the back seat in question, and pilot and gunner were both subsequently decorated. Those were the criteria in force at the time and that's the end of it. I don't know if it's worth saying this again but here goes. The allied air forces did not have a uniform criteria for the award of victory credits so it is not possible to compare or to promote an "alied ace of aces". Any attempt to impose different criteria at this distance is pointless and futile. Whose criteria do you impose? The French? The British? The German?
As for OOC being "ridiculous". Only if you equate a victory with a kill. If the enemy doesn't get to take his photographs or drop his bombs and our side does, that's a victory. The fact that it is acheived without roasting a couple of Germans is thier good luck but of no real significance.

You do realise that we are attaching far more importance to these numbers than was done at the time don't you?

Peter L

PeterL · 7 July 1999, 05:12 PM

p.s. I note with interest that, in your "Highest score" thread further down the page, you apply the opposite criteria to MvR's two seater claims.

7 July 1999, 06:43 PM

Ever since you got here all you have done is cause trouble & discredit others. He should recieve credit for that kills just as most others. If they did it the way you say then most of the A-H aces would have their victory list cut down. Also,if you took that one kill from Fock then he would still have been the leading Allied.

Keith,

wings · 7 July 1999, 08:31 PM

If you count OOC, Richthofen would probably have had more than 100 victories. If you count the way that Bishop did, he would have had more than 200!!!

Amy · 8 July 1999, 04:27 AM

As much as I appreciated having brought H.C. Todd to the forefront, I have to agree with some of Keith's replies. There are way too many dogfights going on about scoring and the over-crediting/discrediting of the leading aces' scores. The subject is out of control and becoming increasingly counterproductive.

Just my observations...

Amy