Who was the real top scorer?

I have just dug up a controversial old newspaper article (October, 30, 1988, Toronto Star) that gives revised scores for the British Commonwealth aces.

It quotes a magazine in the U.K. as saying if all British claims were accepted the same way in each squadron, the scores would be as follows:

Collishaw - 81.5

Bishop - 74.5

Mannock - 72.25

McCudden - 64.66

Beauchamp-Proctor - 58.36

The article quotes the editor of the British magazine as saying:
"If we accept that the criteria employed in accrediting Bishop's victories should extend equally to his colleagues, the result produces not only a radical revision of the `official' victory scores, but a new World War 1 `Ace of Aces' whose aerial achievements in battle exceed even those of the Red Baron.
"This reassessment is not a flippant or ill-conceived attempt to discredit Bishop but rather a means of redressing the balance of objectivity by treating each pilot's victory claim in an identical fashion."

This British magazine assumes there would be a new `Ace of Aces' who would be with the British flying services - Collishaw.

But what if the same criteria was used for all aces? I believe the leading scorers would be as follows:

Fonck - 127

Madon - 105

Nungesser 100-plus

Guynemer - 89

Richthofen - 83

Collishaw - 81.5

These figures could be disputed. I don't know Nungesser's exact claims total, but Hannes tells us it was over 100. And Bishop's could be higher than the 74.5 quoted in the magazine. Author David Baker says Bishop made 80 victory claims.
In `Courage of the Early Morning', Arthur Bishop says Billy made at least 95 victory claims.

I know some of us will say `unconfirmed means unconfirmed' but it's a little hard to believe that all of Fonck's 52 unconfirmed kills could be dismissed. The same goes for the other aces. Surely many of these were legitimate claims.

As for Richthofen, the book `Von Richthofen and the Flying Circus' lists 83 claims. But the Burrows book tells of two occasions where he also gave away victories. That would take him up to 85. Someone in a previous thread said he gave away 10 or 12 in all. So maybe his score could be as high as 93 or 95.

You just don't get it do you??????

Keith,

[Billy_Bishop]

Bud, I think whoever it was that wrote that article doesn't know what he's talking about. First, IF ALL the claims were credited the way they're indicating, there would be no ".55" or ".33" fractions. The British in WWI didn't do that. Obviously, the person who wrote the magazine article in the UK doesn't know his pen from a rectal thermometer.

Besides which, he's just proven that Bishop's claims weren't credited the way HE would like to think they were. If they had been, Bishop's score wouldn't have changed!!!

He was trying to indicate in his article that ALL of Bishop's claims were confirmed, when HE shows us they were not. On top of that, we have reports from the Candian Armed Forces, Dan McCaffrey, and Bishop's son Arthur, as well as comments written in a letter by Bishop's mechanic back in the 1950's that give us a range of unconfirmed for Bishop of anywhere from 5 to 23 unconfirmed claims.

How in the world can ANYONE say that Bishop's were confirmed out of hand? It SHOULD be obvious that they were not. Now, as to what method was used, I haven't a clue. For all I know, Bishop's CO's could have been tossing a coin, "Heads I confirm it, tails I don't", but I really have no idea what method they used. It's also apparent that the writer of that article doesn't either.

Oh well.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[wings]

Very few, if any, of Bishop's victories resulted in German casualties(killed or wounded). That is a fact.

Bud,
Leave the official scores alone. They are what they are and history records it as such! All of this crap about "If they hadn't counted these, or if they revised that, or if they used this system...", WELL "IF" the dog hadn't have stopped to take a s**t, then he'd have caught the rabbit.

Jasta,
When are you going to get it? That the IGAF wasn't the neatest thing since the invention of sliced bread. I'm currently reading a book that was first published in 1927, and FYI the raid on the Aerodrome by Bishop, was talked about by the Germans that were captured by the British. That kind of shoots your theory about the accuracy of German records in the foot. The story on Bishop was written by A. Roy Brown, the guy whose given the credit for downing the Red Baron. So please give it a rest with the "Well the German records, or none of the Germans were casualties" baloney. Were YOU there and do you know first hand all the factual events? As for me, I'll take the word of those who were there. Brown even goes so far as to support what I have maintained about MvR, he is overrated, and not a true fighter pilot. Bishop did most of his flying as a lone wolf, that is what Bishop's skills best suited him for.
WHO WAS THE REAL TOP SCORER? Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, Title holder of 'The World's Leading Ace', 352 Kills.... END OF STORY!
VBR,
Jim

Jim Said:
>> WHO WAS THE REAL TOP SCORER? Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, Title holder of 'The World's Leading Ace', 352 Kills.... END OF STORY!<<

Different war, different rules, buddy.

as for the Brown comment:
Of course Brown would say Richthofen wasn't truely a fighter pilot. Let's get real for a minute. 80 victories, JG commander, sounds like a fighter pilot to me. As for over-rated? I don't think so. More like over investigated and over popularized, which can lead to some people feeling contempt for the man.

About the only thing I'd agree with is letting the scores stand as they are. I assume Fonck fans would like to see some adjustments so that their man could be number one, just as some of Luke's supporters would like to see EVR loses a few credits to change a top ace for America.

I'm sure there is enough literature and enough theories floating around to make virtually anyone the "top" ace.

Also why are the records of WWI Germany considered so innaccurate by some people, yet the German records of WWII are considered reliable when it comes to personal heroes? Who's to say the German propaganda machine didn't help invent Hartmann's extraordinary skill. Afterall the 3d Reich needed heroes just as badly as Imperial Germany.

Tobias Gibson

[Billy_Bishop]

Previously, some anonymous person said...
"Very few, if any, of Bishop's victories resulted in German casualties(killed or wounded). That is a fact."

Is it? Were you there? Did you take pictures? Do you have 100% IRREFUTABLE evidence that what you say is true?

I didn't think so.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Amy]

Al:

Well, maybe jasta was there. Maybe jasta was a true WWI German aviator who after the war visited Einstein in Switzerland and became the first person to participate in a "top secret" cyrogenetic experiment and was just thawed out a couple of years ago. Of course, we'd need to see official documentation to believe it.

Amy

(Hey, it's no crazier an idea than some of the other crazy ideas I've read at this forum!)

[Billy_Bishop]

Well, a picture would be nice. We'd need to see pictures of him with his unit, and then a picture of him today so we could compare.

VBR,

Al Lowe