Camel in Italy

[AGO]

Hi all,
I've just received from Webmaster Sergio Murroni (grazie Sergio !!!) a better copy of the dump bell marked Camel "N". It seems indeed to me that the tail serial number is B6354. Sadly, if the only claimed victory of this Camel is that of 27 Feb 1918 it's not the aircraft I was looking for.However thanks to all for the very useful help.

VBR (and merry Christmas!)

AGO

[Graeme]

John Firth scored three times in France in B6354. Once in Italy, victories were achieved in it by:

1 January 1918 by G H Bush
5 January and 2 February by John Cottle
22 February by H T Thompson
27 February by Maj Vaucour (two claims but only one credited?)
10 March by Cottle (one driven down, one crashed).

It was crashed by J P Huins on 25 March but was repaired in the squadron and sent to 66 Sqn in June. Lt G C Easton failed to return from a patrol on 5 August 1918 (last seen over Mansue aerodrome at 08:50).

Any use?

[AGO]

Not bad!!! One is led to wonder if Meridda made a photo shot at it right because he was aware of it being a so successful aircraft. In every case none of the above dates seems to fit with the infos I have (and that are referred to November 1917)....but thanks again Graeme.
Graeme, do your infos come from " the camel file"? I don't have that book but it seems useful indeed.
AGO

[Graeme]

The information on victories comes from several sources - originally the information in Norman MacMillan's books then combat reports at the Public Records Office, then information in Above The Trenches and, as you have guessed, The Camel File.

The first Camels arrived in Italy during November 1917 - 28 Sqn arrived in Milan on 12 November, 66 Sqn in Milan on 23 November; 45 Sqn arrived in Padova on 18 December. Barker (28 Sqn) claimed the first RFC victory in Italy on 29 November. 66 Sqn did not start claiming until 8 December and 45 Sqn did not get off the mark until the last day of the year.

I can't recall an "incident" taking place in November 1917 but if you can give me any further details I can try and find mentions in other reference matierial I have (probably not until after Boxing Day!)

Merry Christmas

[AGO]

Graeme, of course when I asked about "the Camel file" I intended if your infos came MAINLY from that book because it's clear that to have so many datas one has to rely on different sources,also archive ones.
Well, my interest in that Camel is due to a report made by a patrol of Macchi flying boats dated November 1917 (the exact date is impossible to read).
The crews report of an encounter with a quite strange enemy machine, seemengly a fighter, that was painted "all black with a white part (an insignia?) on the fuselage".This black a/c was flying alone higher than them but, as they tried to intercept, it made a fast dive and escaped (?) .Later the crews saw the same a/c attacked by "an English machine with what seemed a white "N" on the fuselage ".
I was curious also about this German or A-H aircraft painted all black.
VBR
AGO

[Graeme]

Curious. The only combat I know of in November 1917 involving an RFC machine was that on 29 November when Barker claimed an Albatros DV destroyed over the Piave di Soligo, NE Sernaglia shortly after midday. I have a note that Barker's Camel, B6313, was coded "N" (although I don't recall seeing a photograph that would confirm this). The combat report narrative stated that the RFC patrol had been attacked by 12 enemy aircraft and the Albatros that Barker attacked broke up in the air (the German pilot tentatively identified as Ltn Haertl, Jasta 1, wounded).

Since this was the first day of RFC operations and Barker does not appear to have flown the following day, I suppose this must relate in some way to the report by the Italian crew.

Any help?

Happy New Year

Graeme

[AGO]

Graeme, indeed it's a curious coincidence,I mean that of the "N" marked Camel.The location of Barker's success,however,is strange for a flight of flying boats, being too far from the sea (also if in the emergency days after the retreat to the Piave the Italians had to employ Regia Marina's flying boats also to carry out recoinassance and patrol missions well inside the coast).
I think I'll "freeze" this info for the moment, at least until I'll be able to find some detail more.I remain very curious about that all black fighter, however.
I wish you a very happy new year (and millennium).
Ago

[Graeme]

Ago

I have one of Norman MacMillan's books here somewhere; when I find it I'll see if he had anything to say about such a strange occurrence.

Hopefuly the new millennium cannot be as bad as the old one.

Very best regards

Graeme

Dear AGO,
do you know the Italian Squadron or the names of the pilots involved?
VBR
Karl

[AGO]

The rather concise report refers of a patrol headed (?) by Umberto Calvello, who in November 1917 was still posted at 251a Squadriglia at Venice-Sant' Andrea (Stazione Idrovolanti di S.Andrea-Venezia) with the rank of Guardiamarina
.Well,here is what is reported on the 251a Squadriglia's diary about Calvello's operational activity during November 1917 (as for the other machines involved in the missions I cite of course just those of 251a).

Nov 2 - Macchi L3 "L9" (obs Torp. E. Fantaguzzi) with three other flying boats (L3,L8,L10) on a recoinassance patrol over the mouths of the Tagliamento river.
Nov 5 - Macchi L3 "L3" (obs Ten.Oss.V.Gavino of the R.E.) with three other flying boats (L2,L11,L7) on a bombing-strafing mission of enemy troops at Latisana.
Nov 6 - Macchi L3 "L9" (obs.V.Gavino) on a lone recoinassance-bombing mission over Latisana.
Nov 14 - Having left S.Andrea on 09.30 a.m. flying Macchi L3 "L9" (obs.STV L.D'Orso) with three other machines (L7,L8,L11) on a research mission of enemy torpedoboats.Calvello and D'Orso discover the enemy ships and bomb them (the A-H units were later again bombed by other flying boats).
Nov 15 - Macchi L3 "L9" (obs.E.Fantaguzzi) with flying boat "L11"on a recoinassance patrol over Cortellazzo and central Adriatic.
Nov 16 - Macchi L3 "L9" (obs.V.Gavino) with four other machines (L7,L8,L11,L3)on a bombing mission on the Grisolera bridge.
Later the same morning, still flying L9, Calvello and obs E.Fantaguzzi with four other flying boats crews (L3,L11,L7,L8) attack an enemy light naval group proceeding offf the coast.
Nov 17 - Macchi L3 "L9" (obs E.Fantaguzzi) with Macchi "L11" on a research mission above the sea of a missing friend flying boat.
Nov 20 - Macchi L3 "L9" (obs.V.Gavino) with Macchi "L3" on a recoinassance patrol above the sea.
Nov 21 - Same.The other Macchi being the "L3" (Odierna,Sordi)
Nov 23 - Macchi L3 "L9" (obs V.Gavino) with Macchi "L11" on a recoinassance -bombing mission towards Pola.
Nov 27 - Macchi L3 "L9" (obs E.Fantaguzzi) with five other machines (L12,L7,L11,L8, L1) on a bombing mission over the Grisolera bridge.
Nov 30 - Macchi "L9" (obs E.Fantaguzzi) takes off at 07.10 a.m. with three other machines (L1,L3,L11). "L9" and "L11" heads towards Caorle while the others towards Punta Maestra.

Encounters of Italian flyin boats with British machines were not an impossible case.For example I have a copy of a well detailed 1918 report by T.V. Bologna describing an encounter with three British aircraft,one of wich attacked him (it was marked with a "C").On the other hand such an encounter does seem to me quite strange in November 1917, being the British very new to the Italian front and thus certainly not inclined to fly far from their bases.

VBR

AGO