LEADERSHIP

[leo]

I will not say that Godwin Brumowski was the greatest leader of WWI. He did a very good job under some pretty difficult conditions. I would not want him to be left out of this discussion.

I will say his boss Gen Emil Uzelac was perha[s the best qualified leader of all the major powers. He had a pilots license, an engineering degree, and was a hands on leader.

leo

[Vin]

Richard,

By 1917-1918, when Von Richthofen did most of his fighting, the German tactic was to gather together large numbers of scouts to fight and then to pick the opportunity when odds were strongly in their favour. It was the system used. The quality of the individual leader was probably irrelevent. Indeed, Von Richthofen is far better known hanging outside the pack and picking off the straggler rather than leading others into a dog fight.

When Ball did his fighting, in 1916 and early 1917, the lone patrol was a significant and accepted part of flying duties in the RFC. Ball did undertake such patrols. He was also a flight leader and led others into battle. He was an inspiration to the RFC. The real testament to his leadership goes beyond whether he flew individual sorties or not. He, no doubt like most others who survived long enough, recognised the need for a superior scout for the RFC. I read somewhere that German designers drew heavily on the wish lists of their pilots, more so than British designers. Ball went a step further. With the help of his father, he approached the manufacturer and financiers and succeeded in having a scout designed and produced. At the date of his death, the Austin-Ball scout was still in the planning – testing phase. With hte possible exception of Sidney Cotton, what other pilot showed that level of leadership ?


Vin

The point you make regarding MvR is,I think a little unfair. The German objective was to deny the R.F.C. the eyes for their artillery, hence the predominance of observation machines in the list of victories.
Air Marshall "Johnnie" Johnson, is in no doubt and in his book "Full Circle" says that Richthofen was the greatest. He was Britain's greatest ace in W.W.2,so his opinion should carry some weight.
Climbing above a dog fight was a trick used by many. Yes, you could pick off stragglers but you could also come to the aid of your own side, if they were in trouble.
I think you will find that the Austin-Ball scout was not very good. In any event the original question on leadership was cast at commanding a squadron, which Ball never did.
Thanks for your contribution. You are obviously a Ball fan.
Regards
Peter S

I would like to challenge two points.

1. The quality of an individual leader was probably irrelevant in the success of a unit (particularly the success of any German fighter unit in 1917-1918).

Anyone else out there agree with this?

If the quality of a leader was irrelevant in the success of Jasta 11 then why was it not successful before January 1917? Why were other units in the German air force during this 1917-1918 period (including Jasta Boelcke) not nearly as successful as Jasta 11 after Richthofen took it over?

2.Richthofen was known mainly for picking off stragglers rather than leading aircraft into dogfights.

I think he was known for both. I believe certain authors such as Ira Jones say he only picked off stragglers while other authors such as Kilduff seem to document him doing both. From what I have read it seems he would not hesitate to pick off a straggler, but also would not hesitate to lead his aircraft into a dogfight if he thought the odds were favorable.

I don't see how picking off a straggler detracts from ones squadron leadership qualities since it has more to do with building ones individual score, which Richthofen was concerned with, but, I contend, not to the detriment of his quality as a squadron leader. The scores of the rest of his pilots reflect this.


Regards,

MDD

[Vin]

Peter

The point made about Von Richthofen was in response to Richard’s proposal that he (Von Richthofen) was a good leader because he taught by example and that Ball was not a leader because he was a loner. Von Richthofen was the consummate opportunist and pack hunter. No criticism of his tactics. He was doing his job. He was required by the convention of his service and the stage of the war to hunt in a pack. Ball was required by the convention of his service and the stage of the war to hunt alone. No conclusion should be drawn as to leadership qualities. But to jump into the role of entrepreneur, promoter and industrialist whilst posted to a training squadron and at the age of 20 years takes leadership to new level. From what I read, there were only 2 prototypes of the Austin-Ball completed, and these after Ball’s death. Whether the type was any good or not does not detract from his extraordinary role, for a practicing pilot, in the development of an aircraft. I am not a particular “fan” of Balls. I am impressed that his contribution went beyond shooting down a few replaceable enemy aircraft and by his apparently modest and self-effacing disposition.


Vin

I honestly did not know that it was a requirement or convention in the RFC for pilots to hunt alone in 1917. I always thought it was merely tacitly accepted for certain pilots. I have always been under the impression that this was done by certain aces usually on their own time in addition to their regular squadron flights and may have been approved by the RFC, but not really required of anyone. How many pilots in the RFC did this? Most of them or just certain aces?

MDD

I would like to submit Oswald Watt's name as one of the best C.O.'s of the war.

After a brief stint as a private flying for France, although he led many flights, he could not gain an officers rank as he was not French born, on the advice of the French, he transferred to the AFC as he could better utilise his skills there.

He was the founding CO of 2 AFC. His flying of his entire squadron to deploy in France in 1 day was still a record at the end of the war.

Watt was not an 'ace' however he had a victory or two under his belt, nor was he a young man, he was well into his late thirties at the start of the war, but he had the respect and admiration of all his men, and the men had his, he called a spade a bloody shovel. He angered quickly, but the discretion was forgotten about just as quick. He never backed down from a confrontation if he knew he was right, and on many occassions that anger was directed at the brass hats, perhaps the reason he was not decorated.

He wrote on the back of a photo of a crashed SE5, piloted by Lt Robert Clark.

"At this game-those who live, learn-and those who don't, teach others by their mistakes."

As CO of 2 AFC Watt worked 20 hour days, his Batman worried about him but Watt replied that he snuck in a few hours sleep during the day when the flights were on patrol. He always had his mens well being formost in his mind.

He was given command of the entire AFC training wing in 1918, and this is where he excelled.

The King was a regular visitor to Leigherton, as were many of the brass that made Watt's life complicated, not all liked him, but all respected his work. His use of seasoned veterans as flight instructors was not new, but he managed to get the best out of these men even when it was obvious that the longed to be back at the front. Many a young life was saved from training accident due to Watt's attention to detail.

Watt's love for his men even carried on after the war. Many ex AFC men contacted Watt who would then find them employment. He was always there for his men.

His life was tragically cut short when he drowned in 1921.

[Richard_Schrader]

Vin;
Richthofen led his pilots into a attack. He stated on paper that is was the duty of the leader to lead in the attack. Ira Jones & crew were full of beans.
As for Ball, he was a gifted pilot with great courage. Add to that he was just plain smart. The pilots he flew thought he was rather odd, and he was not well liked. This may be more of a bad reflection on them instead of him. I think that if he had lived a bit longer he would have become a very fine leader in 56 Squadron.
Richard

"With regard to Barker there is his last battle with the Snipe and the accusation that he was "Grandstanding." That is mentioned in Barker's biography."

How totally out of context!! Sure it may have looked like a grandstand from the ground! 1 VS a JG!

I hardly think a man 3 times wounded was thinking hmm "I'm gonna shine it on!". He was actually embarrased he was surprised at the onset. Poor form to try and throw mud on this event, Peter.

As for best Leader i'd like to cast one for Oswald. MvR was his pupil, his best pupil, but not the father of scout tactics.

Why do you say "Throw mud?"
I didn't make the accusation and it was not made from the ground but by fellow flyers.
If I remember correctly he was deliberately flying above the rest of the squadron he was visiting. He was at that time not woundeds.
Regards
Peter S