Camels in use after WW1

[MikeW]

There was a recent thread started about camels being used after WW1.

I have just been informed by the curator of the Muzeum Lotnictwa Polskiego (Polish Aviation Museum), that an American, Kenneth Murray flew a camel (serial F5234) as a volunteer (mercenary?) for Poland in 1920 against the Bolsheviks.

I hate to admit my ignorance, but I did not even know there was a Polish - Bolshevik war in 1920!!

Anyone know any more about Mr Murray?

There are 1 or 2 articles about post-1918 aviation in Eastern Europe in the archives at http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/.
I don't recall if they give much information about specific individuals, but they do give the aircraft in use.

[leo]

There were a series of wars in Eastern Europe between 1919 and 1922. Germany vs. Poland-Poland Vs. Lithuania, Poland vs. Russia, Poland vs. Western Ukraine, Russia vs. Ukraine. The main war was, of course, the Russian Cicil War.

Marshall Josef Pilsudski deffeatd the Russians in 1920 at the Batttles of Warsaw and the Vistula. He has been credited with keeping the Red Army out of Germany, Hungary, Austria, and Poland at a time when these countries would have had a difficult time defending themselves. PPilsudski was a very intersting figure. He is condidered by many to be the father of modern Poland.

British WW1 aircraft in the Polish Air Force by Tomasz Kopanski has loads of photos. Only one camel was used by the Poles. Other types include
Bristol fighter, Dolphin,Buzzard, SE5, DH9, RE8
e.t.c. A nice book of which an English language version is available.

andy

[Graeme]

According to "The Camel File" Britain sent either five or six Camels to Poland after the war although some Polish sources mention 10. Those positively identified are F5234 and F5243.

Five Camels were used by the Belgians until 1923; N6166 went to Estonia and survived to about 1929; at least seven went to Latvia and were flown until 1921 and a couple of Camels were used by the US Navy until 1922. Two (and possibly as many as six) Camels went into civil use in the USA and of these N6254 was still flying in 1955 - it now apparently resides in the US Marine Corps Museum, Quantico, Virginia.

"Murray, another New Yorker, had a special distinction, because he brought his own plane, a Sopwith Camel, with him.(In actuality the privately-owned aircraft was purchased by the Polish government before it was shipped from the United States.)" ---This from "Flight of Eagles" by Karolevitz and Fenn- a book re. "The Kosciuszko Squadron" volunteers who flew against the Bolsheviks in 1919-1920. It seems odd that with all the Camels available in England that one would arrive from the U.S.! They had great appreciation for the Ansaldo A-1 "Balillas" they flew- were glad to get use them in lieu of the previously utilized Albatross D-III's. No "air-to-air" reported- one Fokker element attempted to intercept an Ansaldo but was outraced by the far faster A-1. Reportedly all work was against troop formations. Merian Cooper was prominently involved; he was downed by "Bolo" groundfire, captured and escaped from a Russian P.O.W. camp: Prior to his Polish days,while in the U.S.A.S. (20th Pursuit Squadron)he did the cinematography that is still available of Rick in his SPAD "attacking a Hannover" (a captured one). He was one of the first individuals interested in the nature of the Luke/Murvaux incident and wrote the letter urging the Air Service to investigate "unidentified aviator #10" which he believed (correctly) to be Lt.Frank Luke. Cooper who'd resigned from his senior class at Annapolis to go to Mexico with Pershing's forces,in 1914, later wrote and produced "King Kong"- and was a Hollywood studio exec- he went back into WWII and showed up un-invited and without orders to help Claire Chennault in China where he was known to walk away from his desk and suit up for a mission when bored. - Quite a guy was Mr. Cooper- he was known as "The Other" Cooper- in his Hollywood days. On occasion- when in Hollywood- I go to "Musso and Franks" a classic old "watering hole" where he spent much time and lift one to his memory. My best-- Lee

>it now apparently resides in the US Marine
>Corps Museum, Quantico, Virginia.

When I moved to the VA region I was looking forward to seeing the Quantico Camel, I think it got sold to an Arkansas Museum. I think the Marine Corps Museum used it to pay for some other restorations. Bit of a bummer for me.




cam
AFC - http://members.xoom.com/pointcook/

Found out recently that the Bolsheviks used Camels,Sop Tripes,Snipes,and 1 1/2 Strutters.The Camels and snipes were captured planes while the others were taken over as part of the stock left behind by the old Russian Imperial Air Service.(There's an original Sop Tripe on display at Monino Museum in Russia)
The White Russians used Camels as did the fledgling Georgian Air Force-at least 1 that I've seen pictures of.