Karl Degelow's Pfalz DIIIa

Help needed again!
I have just laid my hands on Eduard's Pfalz DIIIa ('Early Version') in 1/48 scale. It contains a correct kit with DIII-wings and elevator. Eduard suggest as one alternative to built Carl von(?) Degelows machine with black fuselage and silver grey wings. The fuselage shows a silver stag with golden antlers. Hmm... All I could find out is a photo in Nowarra's ( I know, I know....) Eisernes Kreuz und Balkenkreuz, page 116, but this shows a Fok D VII. So, can anybody out there confirm this EARLY Pfalz DIIIa with silver/gold stag? In his own words Degelow writes 'white stag' ( see 'Aces'). Any help would be great. Thanks.

[Rick]

First, Degelow was not a 'von'. Second, see "Germany's Last Knight of the Air", trnaslated and edited byb Peter Kilduff, page. 125 - a photo of Degelow's Pflaz. D.IIIa. Somewhat washed out.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hans & Rick:
I have a photo that I bought from Heinz Nowarra years ago of Ltn. Karl Degelow's Pfalz D.IIIa.
I believe the aircraft was painted all black with a white rudder and the white Stag with gold antlers painted on both sides of the fuselage. It has balken crosses with 150 mm white borders surrounding the wing crosses. Greg Van Wyngarden disagrees with me he thinks the wing are painted aluminum. Ltn Degelow was the Jastaführer of Jasta 40. The Jasta color was black fuselages,fin, tailplane, wheel covers and all struts. The wings in the photo are very dark on Degelow's Pfalz D.IIIa I believe they were black to differeniate him as the Jastaführer.
Blau Himmel,
Dan-San Abbott

[rammjaeger]

Hans,

in 1914 Degelow was wounded and stayed in Dresden in the hospital in the suburb "Weisser Hirsch".
The coat of arms or marking of the hospital showed just this "White Stag" and Degelow (and Windisch) used the symbol later for his airplanes.
The colours silver and gold are maybe Degelows addd-on (?) because I saw only black and white drawings of the hospital symbol until now.

Thank you to all!
If the white stag comes from a coat-of-arms than 'white' could be also painted as silver, as 'white' is the subsitute for the silver 'metal'.

Hans concluded:

"If the white stag comes from a coat-of-arms than 'white' could be also painted as silver, as 'white' is the subsitute for the silver 'metal'."

Weisser Hirsch, which of course means "white stag" (or "deer"), still exists as a suburb of Dresden, and wouldn't you know it, they have a Web site,
http://www.dresden-weisser-hirsch.de/index.html,
where, even less surprisingly, one discovers the emblem of the displaying (rutting?)stag is used as the town logo. On the Geschichte page, one will find a version of the emblem in the upper left corner of the map from the 15th century. The use of a darker color (black) to distinguish and emphasize the antlers seems to be part of traditional use.

Given that the reference is to a town name that in turn refers to a rare (and perhaps magical) phenomenon of nature--the albino stag--I do not think that this emblem has an heraldic heritage. To me, this suggests that heraldic "argent" is less likely as the appropriate color, and the forms of the few images available on the Web site are consistent with this conclusion.
Of course, all this speculation may be moot if the currently suggested colors are from Degelow, who survived the war to write a book *With the White Stag Through Thick and Thin* and long enough to have been interviewed about his aircraft. Does anyone know? Even in the absence of his own reports, there is nothing to say that Degelow couldn't have altered the emblem to suit his own tastes.
Regards,
Stef

BTW, Hans, since you seem to be a modeler have you considered joining the World War I Modeling Page mailing List?

for another take on the white stag, here's what Robert Pearson posted on the WWI Modeling List back on June 5 of this year:

"As for the stag, Windisch (sp) also used the same marking. . people often
thought he was sitting in Degelow's D.VII. . untrue .. that stag was a
popular advertisement of the time. . and as a later generation would but a
Vargas girl on numerous aircraft. . both Degelow and Windisch used the same
marking they saw in a magazine [source: GVW's talk at teh 1998 OTF seminar]"

So go figure. Is the story about the hospital in Weisser Hirsch more unsupported WWI aviation rumor? Perhaps DSA can illuminate us?
Stef

The "Weisser Hirsch" is no rumour. Behind that is "Dr. Lahmanns Sanatorium in Weisser Hirsch bei Dresden"; see for example the advertisment reprinted in the Fokker Anthology No 2, p. 49.
Degelow definitely was there for convalescence; wether Windisch also spent some time in that sanatorium or just came from there, is not so clear for me.

Volker

[Soderbaum]

Hi Stef

It can be added that Degelows own book published shortly after the War(1920) did have the title "Mit dem Weisser Hirsch durch dick und duenn".
The photo of the Pfalz D is originally printed in that book what I remember...

Gunnar

[rammjaeger]

Volker,

both were wounded in 1914 and both spend some time in the "Lahmann-Sanatorium", which was used as a hospital in this time. Until now I see no reason to doubt the information of his biograph Beck about Windisch´s stay there.

Gunnar adviced me a long time ago that Degelow was claiming he took the symbol from a local pub in "Bad Weißer Hirsch". This Degelow-statement seems to be wrong. The stag on his machine is the stag of the Sanatorium and not the stag of one of the many pubs or buildings in "Weißer Hirsch". No doubt possible - and there exist really many different "White Stag"-symbols in this part of Dresden (BTW: My hometown! - therefore I know what I say.).

Regards
Hannes