MvR and Fokker DVII

In the Squadron/Signal publication on the Fokker DVII, it mentions that MvR was given one of the first DVII, but chose to fly the Dr1 on his last flight. Was this the case? After reading some of MvR's letters in Kilduff's bio, I find it strange he would fly the Dr.1 when he had the plane he had been asking for, and Kilduff's book doesn't mention this bit.

It is undoubtedly true that the very first DVII's accepted by the Luftsrieke would go to MvR and JG1. While the first production models probably existed before his death, it is doubtful that they had yet been accepted. If they had been, then it is possible that the Germans were in the process of handling the logistics required to get the planes to the front. It is difficult to believe that the long-awaited DVII was already in MvR's possession at Cappy, but was never reported as having been flown, never photographed, and never specifically stated in any of the books available.

[Ron_F]

There seems to be some conflicting data on when the first examples came out. Winsock has it roughly 19 at the end of April beginning of May for the D7. With 18 being accepted as early as February-March time frame.
Heinz Nowarras book on the Circus has an interview with Willi Gabriel in that he did a solo stint in front of MvR to show his stuff in a D7. Squadron signal says he had one, but Nowarra's book on Dr1/D7 has it as they came after his death in April. Fokker D7 anthology seems to point to after his death as well.

If he did have one (unlikely at this point IMOHO) the probable reason is that of the fear of the new Fokker fighter and any problems that plagued the previous Fokker designs might show itself.

But i dont think that ever discouraged MvR or the other pilots, IMOHO...

Perhaps someone else has better info...

vbr
Ron

Thanks Mark and Ron for you info. I am leaning in the direction that MvR didn't have the DVII, if anything that no photos of him with the plane ever surfaced. I would think that if he had, a photo of it would be a good propaganda opportunity.

Hi James,

We went through a lengthy thread on this exact subject back in March, you may want to see if you can reference it.

I have a lot of information from Mercedes and Fokker documenting the early D.VIIs. The offical monthly front line inventories list 19 D.VIIs for April. It turns out 24 D.VIIs were accepted in February and March.

For the "student" I will list them.

227/18
228/18
229/18
230/18 This aircraft was finished by Albatros. 232/18
233/18 At Kest 3 on July 11th, 1918
234/18 Friedrichs crashed into 2 very ealry D.VIIs
235/18
236/18
237/18
238/18
239/18
240/18
242/18
243/18
244/18 Flown by Heldmann, (photos with LvR)
245/18
247/18 Photo taken of at Jasta 14
248/18
249/18 At Jasta 10
250/18
252/18 Flown by Lowenhardt
253/18
254/18
256/18

So there was certainly some D.VIIs available, it would simply be a matter of if they could have reached MvR before April 21st. Some believe these 23, (1 D.VII would have been type tested to destruction by Idflieg), D.VIIs were still at Armee Flug Parks, or in storage, or in transit from the Flug Parks to the Jastas before April 21st.

Of possible interest, Fokker Dr.Is accepted in September were held at Fokker in Schwerin, (normally the Flug Park would have held them, or they would have been put in storage, but it was known they would go to JG1, so Fokker held them), until more Dr.Is were accepted in early October, and then 17 were shipped out on October 10th and 13th, (one was shipped before, possibly for evaluation on October 4th), so the aircraft type could outfit the entire Jasta, (although this number is still short for a full compliment of 21 aircraft for a Jasta). Another 5 Dr.Is were shipped on October 29th.

If we use this time line of Dr.I aircraft accepted in September and early October, and the aircraft being at the front by around the 20th of October, you can see with the 24 D.VIIs accepted in March, they appear to have had just enough time to make it, or not, to MvR by the 21st of April.

Interestingly enough, if we use the Frontbestand, (front line strengths), for the Dr.I, we see they list 17 for October, so they obviously included the 17 shipped by Fokker on October 10th and 13th, but not the additional 5 shipped on October 29th. Again using this line of thinking, for there to be 19 Fokker D.VIIs listed in the Frontbestand for April, infers they would most likely would have been shipped mid-April and gotten to MvR, or not.

But this is all conjecture and speculation. Until a photo of a D.VII in the field is found with Richthofen in the photo, the side of "no production D.VII was ever flown by Richthofen", will hold the field.

Others believe that MvR was awaiting a BMW powered D.VII instead of the Mercedes powered D.VII, (I believe this unlikely). The very first BMW powered D.VII was 231/18, and it was accepted on April 25th, about month or more after the first D.VIIs were accepted. The next BMW powered D.VII wasn't accepted until a week later on May 3rd.

Best,
Dave Watts

Hi all,

Oops, sorry about the 232/18 coming after "230/18 Finished by Albatros", it should have been in the main listing column.

Best,
Dave

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Gentlemen:
The Front Line Inventory(Front Bestand) for 30 April 1918 has 19 Fok.D.VII aircraft listed. Those few were most likely at the Armee Flugparks being assembled and test flown. Jasta 10 of JG Nr1 Richthofen was not equipped until they had moved to Guise aera airfields in the German 18.Armee on 21 May 1918. This move to Guise was made to overhaul it's equipment and to prepare JG Nr.1 for the move to Puisieux Ferme in the German 7.Armee on the 26 May 1918 and the to participate in the 2cd Battle of the Marne which began on 27 May 1918. By the end of May 1918 Jasta 10, 11 and 6 had been equipped with the Fok. D.VII. Jasta 4 was flying Fok. DR.I machines. Vzfw Gabriel did not put on a show for MvR, Vzfw Willy gabriel joined JG Nr.1 on 17 May 1918 and was assigned to Jasta 11.
Blue Skies,
Dan-San Abbott

[Ron_F]

DSA,
<Vzfw Gabriel did not put on a show for MvR, Vzfw Willy gabriel joined JG Nr.1 on 17 May 1918 and was assigned to Jasta 11.>
I didnt believe the account either, but, according to Willi, he joined April 15th, and supposedly put on the show in front of MvR. He is shown in Geschwader records as coming on that date of 17 May '18. I guess its because he was transferred from Schlachtstaffel Nr 15 without going to a Jastaschule, he was on probationary period? I dont see how that would effect his date.
A case of time affecting the brain or ?

vbr
Ron

[Ron_F]

to my previous post, after checking Richthofen combat wing, it seems Reinhard is the one that told him what is expected of him. might be a case of mistaken identity?

Ron