Mannock's score

While no one can be sure of the exact number (we all have our views!) what is the official number recorded for 'Mick'. According to http://www.chapter-one.com/vc/awards/m/083...html

His official score is 73. Is this right or is his official score different.

By official score i mean the score credited at the end of the conflict NOT 80 years after.

Mark

In 1919, at the time he was gazetted for his VC, he was officialy credited by the RAF as having 50 victories.
Regards
Paul

The VC citation credited him with 50 but he claimed 61. The figure 61 seems to have been accepted by the RAF. Why the VC citation had a lower figure is anyone's guess.
After losing a fist fight with Billy Bishop, Ira
Jones wrote a book claiming Mannock had 73 victories, one more than Bishop. Most historians accept that Jones disgraced himself by deliberately lying about this.
German records credit Mannock with about 21 victories.

[Ron_F]

<After losing a fist fight with Billy Bishop, Ira
Jones wrote a book claiming Mannock had 73 victories, one more than Bishop. Most historians accept that Jones disgraced himself by deliberately lying about this.
German records credit Mannock with about 21 victories. >

Bud, i havent seen any proof that the fist fight happened. please do not put down what cant be proven, it misleads people.

Most historians include who? i only have Franks and an article reprinted from cross and cockade that suggests Ira came up with the extra victory above Bishop.

I would like to see more than just 'most historians' for my own personal curiousity.

Ron

[Billy_Bishop]

In the biography of his father "Courage of the Early Morning" William ARTHUR Bishop says that members of the press did this.

On page 190 of the paperback version I quote the following:

"The citation for Mannock's posthumous Victoria Cross credited him with fifty victories, but first one journalist then another, referred to Mannock's seventy-three victories--one more than Bishop's official score at the end of his fighting career. Bishop, who rarely lost his temper, did so when he realized that the other journalists, for the sake of a story, were trying to draw him into a dispute over Mannock's record. But he controlled his anger and answered with grim coolness:

"I wish to God Mick had shot down a hundred and seventy-three planes. That would have left a lot fewer Huns to kill our pilots. What the hell does it matter who shot them down?"

The controversy soon died down, largely because Bishop refused to become embroiled, but his attitude was significant. He took a healthy competitive interest in his score in comparison with that of other Allied pilots, exactly as if they were players in some apocalyptic game. But it would never occur to him to envy the success of a team-mate.

I found it interesting that Ira Jones is not named ANY WHERE in Arthur Bishop's book. Perhaps Jones was the first "journalist" mentioned??

VBR,

Al Lowe

I know all about the ira jones situation and that was why i was trying to keep to the 'official' score. Of course the actual number of victories makes little difference, as his skills as a teacher and leader of men were far more important (in my humble opinion that is!) than how many OoC's might not have happened or who made up what about whom!

Thanks for the imput, i think i will stick to the 61 figure (split the difference!)

Mark

Hi Mark,

Why don't you take Bishop's official score and split the difference between the 72 and the two
crash sites 82 years of research can match to them and make Bishop's score 36. That's still very generous.

VBR,

Stengel

Gustav, all members of my central African tribe know the difference between Mannock and Bishop, do you? Incidently, many of Bishop's victims are verified on the stone tablet records I presently reference.

After my first every posting on here, i now duck when the name bishop is mentioned... Funny that the two names are always put together as they were totally different types of pilot. As to who i would prefer as my commander, i think the stats of 85 squadron while under each man's command more than show the better leader....

As Britney would say 'ooops i did it again'

Mark

[Billy_Bishop]

Mark, and everyone else,
I have no problem with the well demonstrated fact that Mannock was a better squadron leader than Bishop was. In my humble opinion, Bishop should have NEVER been given a squadron command. He was ok at the flight level (And JUST Ok, not great, not excellent, just OK), but commanding a squadron was really not his forte.

What I REFUSE to admit until shown POSITIVE proof is that he ever lied about a claim. There is NO proof to that effect. And no, LACK of proof that he didn't is not neccessarily proof that he did.

Regardless of what some may think.

After all, that would be tantamount to convicting someone of murder without a body or any other proof that they commited murder.

At least in my humble opinion.

Al Lowe, 'Honourary Canuck' ICQ 16532469
alowe@billybishop.net - http://www.billybishop.net
Saburo Sakai - 8-16-1916 to 09-22-2000 RIP