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2000 Closed threads from 2000 (read only)

 
 
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Old 19 September 2000, 10:36 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Craig,
when you participate in the discussion (WW1 Aviation) it is quite interesting, however your last post has shown me that my theories about you are correct.

 
Old 19 September 2000, 10:51 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Then feel free to bask in the glory of your aforementioned wisdom.
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Old 19 September 2000, 02:34 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Identifying perceived deficiencies in others is one thing. Publically belittling those perceived to have said deficiencies is another matter entirely. An interesting question: Who should be taken more seriously, the perceiver or the perceivee?
 
Old 20 September 2000, 10:05 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I suppose it has alot to do with the demeanor of the accused. In Jim's case, he makes himself a target - indeed, I think he thrives on it.
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Old 20 September 2000, 10:20 AM   #35 (permalink)
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The way i understand it Foncks actions during WWII (supporting the lawful, be it forcefully imposed gov't) mean that he will continue to get a raw deal until people learn to judge only on events during WWI and not later actions. I don't think i have read a single account about Fonck that doesn't refer to him as a Nazi and a drunk, what the hell has that got to do with his war record?

Sorry had to get that of my chest! It is good to be back.

Mark
 
Old 20 September 2000, 02:04 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Craig,
It has NOTHING to do with my "making myself a target", but it DOES have everything to do with the revisionist disparagement of top scorers among the Entente airforces. I have stated before, what I've seen take place on here with a lot of the German supporters, revisionist's/and apologists. All of it is true fact, NOT just my imagination, and has been witnessed by others as well! You number among these that want to twist history to suit their own ends. These are usually known as DILETTANTS of history. According to these types it's God FORBID anyone should ever say the German's wanted the war, and started the war by subterfuge! GOD FORBID that any Entente ace with records such as Bishop's or Fonck could be telling the truth! That is why I choose to think for myself, and draw my conclusions from the writings/interviews of the actual participants of the Great War. German records corroboration be damned! IF HE SAID HE DID A CERTAIN FEAT, I'LL TAKE IT AT FACE VALUE. Anything else is an exercise in mental masturbation, which some on here seem to delight in wasting other's valuable time engaging in. You need to get a grip and move on with your life. Stop worrying about what my ideas are, and if you can change my mind! YOU can't! History is written, and the written record of that era is all we've got to go on. Anything written years after the fact is clouded by time, lack of facts, lack of eyewitnesses, and a hundred other things, and of course it is the author's own opinions and predjudices that play into the equation! BUT if they weren't in the driver's seat of a Fokker/Albatross/Pfalz, or SPAD/Nieuport/Brisfit/RE-8 etc. in combat, then they probably don't have a real accurate picture of what goes on minute by minute, play by play! Stop searching for stuff that isn't there. The "gunman on the grassy knoll" theory while proven plausible, hasn't been accepted as fact. As I said on another thread about this same type of thing when the claim was made about the idea of Germany being the "bad guy" in WW1 was left wing propaganda... "Left wing , right wing, add a beak and you have a duck!" Facts are facts, and conjecture is bullsh-t!
Regards,
Jim 'ACE'
 
Old 20 September 2000, 08:18 PM   #37 (permalink)
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After looking at RF's tally in OTF vs TJP, i find this:
17 Mar '18, a Pfalz d3 at 1750hrs. since i cant corrolate to the 4 possibles that it could be due to time and where it exactly took place, its hard to say of the confirmation.
29 mar '18. 2 scouts are what he claimed on this date. provided they were indeed scouts, NO losses according to TJP.

12 April '18, another scout claimed. again, since i dont have a way to know where he was based at this time, i cannot confirm it with what i have.

27 June, Pfalz d3. same reason as above.

26 sept, Fokker D7s, 2 each. same as above. tho, all the causulties this day for the Jastas were all wounded. none died.

5 Oct '18, another scout. 1 loss this day, wounded pilot. cannot confirm due to reasons above for where RF was stationed.

30 Oct '18, claimed 2 scouts, only 1 loss recorded. cannot confirm that one for the reasons above.

31 oct '18, 1 scout. no losses at all this date.

There, as can be seen, its hard right now to confirm most of his claims due to the type he shot down, and for me, where he was based in relation to the units opposed.

obviously, even Fonck does not have 100% on these scouts types he claimed to have shot down.

I hope someone has more info on it than i do about his claims.

im not bashing him, just showing what i stated i would try to do, which is very hard given the limited info on where he was based(that i have) and what planes he actually shot down vs all the german losses.

Ron F.

PS, He fought for his country with tremendous skill, whether he was a braggart or not is a moot point. They should be honored, and the tallys will never change anyway. lets just deal with whats accepted.
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Old 21 September 2000, 04:08 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Jim:

History is written by the victors to favor the victors. In our 'open' society, however, we have access to records etc. that we can use to get a more objective view of "what actually happened". This happens to cast into deep shadows of doubt the numbers of planes claimed by the Entente - which were already suspect, as they exceeded the numbers of planes the Germans were able to even build. That you insist upon interpreting this as a pro-German bias reveals more about your ulterior motives than mine.

You insist on protecting your heroes at the expense of rational and objective assessment of the subject, and this is worse than the dilettantism of which you accuse me. It is idolatry of an almost adolescent nature. If you insist upon parading your willful ignorance like this, I can be counted on to remind everyone of just how naked the emperor is.
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Old 21 September 2000, 11:21 AM   #39 (permalink)
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How do you determine whether the persons writing these records were ever guilty of propagandistic statements or outright deception?
You can only take "what is written" as fact AFTER you examine the sources. It is something less than rational to believe anything just because somebody wrote it down. There are some instances where deliberately false information was written into the records at the time or at a later date.
Have you employed handwriting experts and cross referenced EVERY STATEMENT that challenges accepted records? If not, you are obliged to record the fact that the information is UNVERIFIED.
On the other hand, if you can prove, to the satisfaction of a jury of historians familiar with the aspects alluded to, that the records in question have not been tampered with, you are a creditable historian.
While the German Military is known for its record keeping thoroughness, it is also well known for its self-serving propaganda.
As the man said, the records stand until you PROVE otherwise beyond any lingering doubt.
 
Old 21 September 2000, 11:25 AM   #40 (permalink)
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This is beyond useless. You chaps can have your imaginary heroes.
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