Mannock's last victory

First of all, this is not an anti-Mannock posting.

But I'm wondering whether he should be given credit for his last victory (No. 61, scored on July 26, 1918).

The Grub Street people give Mannock credit for this victory, over a German two-seater, but Mick never claimed it himself. He was killed in the same fight.

If you read the combat report of the man flying with him, Lt. Donald Inglis, you'll see it was probably Inglis who shot the German down.

It reads as follows:

"Whle following Major Mannock in search of two seater EAs we observed an EA coming towards the lines and turned away to gain height, diving to get east of EA which saw us just too soon and turned east; Major Mannock turned and got in a good burst when he pulled away. I got in a good burst at very close range, after which EA went into a slow left-hand spiral with flames coming out of his right side. I watched him go straight into the ground and go up in a large cloud of black smoke and flame.
I then turned and followed Major Mannock back at about 200 feet. About half way back I saw a flame come out of the right-hand side of his machine, after which he apparently went down out of control. I went into a spiral down to 50 feet and saw machine go straight into the ground and burn. I saw no one leave the machine and started for the line."

It sounds to me like Mannock was hit by the German gunner (or maybe ground fire) and broke away, bursting into flames shortly afteward. Inglis, meanwhile, put the fatal burst into the two-seater.

I think this kill belongs to Inglis, not Mannock. As I said, it is not a relfection on Mannock's character because he did not live to make a claim. It's not like he was trying to get credit for it. Had he lived, I suspect he would haver filed a combat report giving Inglis the credit.

On the bright side, this is one of the relatively small number of Mannock kills that is confirmed in German records.

[rammjaeger]

"On the bright side, this is one of the relatively small number of Mannock kills that is confirmed in German records."

What are you guy calling a "small number"?
Either you are bad informed or intentionally saying not the truth.

Based on the problems we observe in the military record, it was hard enough for the people who were there to agree on what they saw. How is it possible for US to correct the recorded differences of opinion? While it is certainly possible that Inglis got the two-seater, it is also possible that he claimed it because he could see that Mannock wasnt coming back to put in a claim.

[Richard_Schrader]

Bud;
You brought up a very interesting question. I've always heard that it was groung fire that knocked Mannock from the sky. You bring up the very good case for his plane being damaged by return fire from the 2-seater. If the observer hit "Mick's" fuel tank it would have cause a loss of pressure which the pilot would immediately notice. The pilot would more than likely break off the combat at this point. The leaking fuel would than reach a hot spot on the engine which would result in fire. Good thinking , Bud.
Richard

[Vigilant]

The way Inglis' combat report is written it does seem possible that Mannock was shot down air to air.

However, Inglis later described the flight more fully, saying:

"Suddenly he turned towards home full out and climbing. 'A Hun,' thought I, but I'm damned if I could find one; then a quick turn and a dive, and there was Mick shooting up the Hun two-seater. He must have got the observer, as when he pulled up and I came in underneath him I didn't see the Hun shooting. I flushed the Hun's petrol tank and just missed ramming his tail as it came up when the Hun's nose dropped. Falling in behind Mick again we did a couple of circles round the burning wreck and then made for home. I saw Mick start to kick his rudder and realised we were fairly low, then I saw a flame come out the side of his machine..."

And 85 Squadron received a phone call from the 24th Welch Regiment in the front line before Inglis returned saying:

"Major Mannock down by machine gun fire from ground between Calonne and Lestrem after bringing E.A. two-seater down in flames at Lestrem. Lieutenant Inglis shot through petrol tank landed on front line at St.Floris. Machine O.K., Pilot O.K. Machine likely to be shelled, salvage tonight if possible, more later. Machine at Sheet 36a S.E. or 36 N.W., K.31, D.14."

It looks like ground fire to me.

I shan't comment on whether Mannock should have been credited with the two-seater. The numbers game seems a bit pointless to me.

Vigilant.

(Source: "King of Air Fighters" by Ira Jones, pp.248-251)

[Ginger.]

Vigilant
I'm just reading Ira's book for the first time.

[Richard_Schrader]

Vigilant;
Sounds to me like your right.
Richard

[Billy_Bishop]

Regarding Mannock's 61st, if he fired at and hit the 2-seater as well as the other person, then by all the rules then in use, he is entitled to it as a victory. After all, shared claims were credited to each pilot as a full victory. The other fellow had nothing to lose by claiming it for himself and Mannock, and everything to gain.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Richard_Schrader]

Very good point, Al.
Richard

Hannes, German records would deny Mannock about 40 kills and maybe 46. That would still leave him with 15 to 21. I suppose 'small number' isn't really accurate, especially for 21. Mannock does much better than most leading Allied aces when it comes to German confirmations. Still, there's no doubt that he would take a very major hit if we subtracted victories with no confirmation from the other side. His record would, in fact, almost be gutted. It's unlikely a guy with 15 to 21 kills in 1918 would have received the VC or very much recognition. He wouldn't be any better known today than British aces like Tempest, Venter, Clayson, or Burden.

As for Al Lowe's point, I agree. It probably was considered a shared victory by the RAF.