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Go Back   The Aerodrome Forum > Archives > 2000

2000 Closed threads from 2000 (read only)

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Old 15 August 2000, 04:33 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Pretty sad to see the sneering references to Bishop's duty in WW2. An absolute new low from the anti-Bishop jackasses on this thread. Nice that Bishop was not only able to kick ass himself in WW1, but recruit a whole lot of boys to kick ass in WW2.
Old 15 August 2000, 07:53 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Bishop might have tried to do more than recruit or boost moral between the wars. I don't have it anymore, but he wrote a book called Winged Peace, or maybe he had a ghost writer. In it he said that no country should have its own air force but something like the league of nations should control all airpower. I don't remember if he said how you get countries to give up their air forces!
Old 16 August 2000, 01:45 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I find it difficult to believe that a soldier would endorse the elimination of a national, er colonial military force and desire to place control of such a weapon in the hands of an international body, although I must say this sounds exactly like an idea the current American president would support.
Old 16 August 2000, 03:40 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Old 16 August 2000, 04:42 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I agree.

This is my first time posting in this forum, so I fully expect flak from some of you on here

I must confess that one of my war heroes is actually Raymond Collishaw, and I am in fact an Australian (so of course, Little ranks right up there too). WRT the claims of nationalism and idolatry floating around, I partially take the point. I also take the point that neither German nor Allied aces did all that they said they did.

My personal take on the whole matter is this - who really cares? "The history books" seem to be spoken of on here as some sort of tomes which, ideally, are totally objective and factually correct. Yet I put to you all that history books are almost never either. The reason? They're written by human beings, who are flawed individuals (no matter what flag they fly under) and it is therefore hardly surprising that they're biased and inaccurate accounts. And as an aside to those of you who might like to take shots (cheap or otherwise) at people like Bishop and Collishaw, I'd point you to Collishaw's book, "Air Command". In there he freely acknowledges that exaggerated claims were made about the war, by his own countrymen. Following an extensive list of statistical claims, he writes: "We have been told by our own statesmen that there was something in the Canadian character and temperament which allowed our young men to take to the air and enjoy a mysterious superiority over all others. All, of which, of course, adds up to sheer nonsense."

That said, in the same book Collishaw touches on what, I believe, lies at the heart of this whole debate over victories. He criticises the entire practice of using credited victories over enemy machines as a means of assessing an individual flyer's contribution in WWI. And that, it seems to me, is really on the money. Who really cares whether von Ricthofen shot down 80 or 84? If Collishaw indeed shot down 6 in a day? Does it really make a difference if a machine went down OOC or broke up in the air? Either way it was out of action for the rest of the scrap, and possibly longer! It does seem to me that we get too bogged down sometimes in an argument that will never work due to differing scoring systems and different defintions of victories, yet the end state is still the same.

You simply can't judge someone's worth or contribution to the war on how many planes they shot down (real, imagined, or mistaken).

Sorry about such a rambling post, but as you've no doubt guessed, I feel reasonably strongly about this one...

Anyway, I shall push down my goggles, ease my Camel forward, and wait for the archie to start.

Old 16 August 2000, 04:43 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Like an idiot newbie I forgot to saw who I agree with - was agreeing with Mosby re Bishop in WWI and recruiting in WWII.

Old 16 August 2000, 06:16 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Old 16 August 2000, 07:31 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Excellent point made by Drake re authors/authorities on this subject. While it is certainly possible that latter-day investigation will clarify some specific disputed issues, it is ridiculous to assume, as some appear to, that all of the unverifiable accounts in the historical record are blatant "lies" or "mistakes" simply because they are not corroborated from all sides.

As with any arguement, there are good points on both side of the issue. The truth undoubtedly lays somewhere in the middle.
Old 16 August 2000, 07:36 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Old 16 August 2000, 08:11 AM   #20 (permalink)
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"He criticises the entire practice of using credited victories over enemy machines as a means of assessing an individual flyer's contribution in WWI. "

That is very profound. Excellent point! Good for Collie.



different, bishop, topic

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