Rene Fonck-125 kills???

I read in a book that René Fonck had claimed to be responsible for 125 kills. That would be much more than the 80 of Richthofen. As far as I know Richthofen himself never mentioned to have shot down more planes than he officially got credit for. Does anyone know more about unconfirmed kills of the leading aces on all sides? After summing up all the confirmed an unconfirmed kills which pilot is the ace of aces? I think there have to be some surprises. There were pilots like Voss or Guynemer who prefered hunting alone. Were they able to prove all their kills?

thx

[stephen]

Foncke, Collishaw and MvR all claimed far high kill scores than they were ever credited with. And knowing what we do of their combat record, you have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I'm curious, how many killed MvR claimed?

I certainly must take exception to Stephen Skinner's comments clumping Von Richthofen with Collishaw, Bishop, and Fonck as pilots who claimed
more than they shot down.

We can DEFINITIVELY identify 76 of MvR's 80 victories - 95%. 80 of the 125 occupants were killed. MvR's two unconfirmed claims were as an observer early in the war and were well behind enemy lines.

Of Bishop's 72 victories, we can identify possibly
TWO! Collishaw takes the collar - a perfect 0 for 60 including six an a day where the entire IGAF sustained no losses to either fighters or two seaters. I can identify five of Fonck's 72 "kills" and Rene has the Bruno Stachelesque distinction of claimimng planes that were shot down by fellow squadron members that were believed dead and later turned up alive.

Von Richthofen ROUTINELY conceeded victories to his subordinates including two I can think of off the top of my head. Both 3/18/18, a Bristol to Grassman and a Camel to Lowenhardt ( see Kilduff MvR combat wing)

Von Richthofen deserves MUCH MUCH better.



Holck

[stephen]

No need to take exception to anyone's comments, Count. How many aircraft a pilot claimed to have destroyed and how many of his official victory claims can be matched by latter day researchers to a known enemy loss are completely unrelated topics.

MvR claimed, I believe, to have destroyed around 120 total aircraft, 80 of which were officially recognized and around 68-70 of which can be specified with some certainty today (others will claim all 80 can be verified, but there's more to this speculation than can be discussed here). Foncke claimed to have destroyed 125, and Collishaw once told Stew Taylor that he was the ace of aces "no matter what anyone else said," based on his unawarded claims. So no one is impuning MvR's record of official claims versus verified enemy combat losses... in fact, no one was even talking about that.

Based on claims alone (a pilot's word on his achievements), I believe Foncke's 125 would give him the self-appointed title of "ace of aces."

Hi Guys, I'm jumping into one of these conversations for the first time. From what I've read about Fonck it sounds completely like him to claim fifty more planes than he is credited for. It seems he was an insufferable braggart and not well liked. I'm sure all of the top aces shot down more planes than they got credit for. But since the majority of the fighting took place over German lines one could conclude that their claims were inherently more verfiable. I've also read that the wind pattern blew west usually, giving the German Air Force an advantage.

Dear stephen,

My WWI aviation library contains 1500 books in six languages. I have every issue of Cross & Cockade and every issue of Over the Front. Would please direct me to Any piece of written literature where Von Richthofen claimed 120 planes shot down? 110? 100? 90? 85? Just curious.

Regards,

Holck

[rammjaeger]

Sorry Stephen,

I have to "ram" now.

I am not a big Richthofen-fan but have to say:

If you are only "believing" - whithout every supporting fact - he claimed 120 than I have to say your memory seems to cheat you. This claim is completely unproven.

Additional there is no German top pilot who was getting only 2/3 of his claims confirmed or so many as 40 unconfirmed victories! How can that happen if you are fighting mostly over own area?

Such a discrepancy between confirmed claims and own statements is a classic French thing and has to do with the so-called "ennemies abbatus" and "désemparés". Therefore claimed the best four French pilots to have 100+ victories because they counted also the (more questionable) victories of the second category. I think I studied a considerable number of German documents and books but even the worst Nazi-propaganda contained not such "120er" success-statements.

I guess you are mixing up MvR and the French

OR you are very biased.

Hannes

I would really like to hear one of the GOGS about the "120".

I must agree with the "Count" on this one. Even in "Red Fighter Pilot" he only makes referance to having 3-4 victims going uncomfirmed. One was when he was an observer on the russian front.

He didn't award himself "Cups" for the unconfirmed, so I don't think he dwelt on them as much as that braggart Fonck did.

"Uncomfirmed by army, means UNCONFIRMED!"

hehe

[stephen]

Hannes is quite possibly right; maybe my memory fails me. I thought MvR personally believed that he'd shot down 120 (as opposed to officially requested victory credit via a claim). If I am wrong, I rely entirely on you and the good count to point out my foolishness. But I digress from the original question:

Foncke's 125 is supreme unless you include Collishaw's verbal claim decades after the war...

and official victory claims make a nice topic but have never been a part of this thread.