Zogby Poll?

During a recent visit to Canada, I asked fifty Canadian citizens if they had heard of Bishop and/or Barker. 19 positive replies were verified by descriptions of the exploits of these pilots.

Similar questioning of fellow Americans concerning Rickenbacker and Luke gave only 7 of 50 positive responses.

While this polling is not all that impressive in and of itself, it did have the beneficial effect of causing my wife to disassociate herself from me for long enough to get in some fine shooting at the casino craps tables

>Similar questioning of fellow Americans
>concerning Rickenbacker and Luke gave
>only 7 of 50 positive responses.

I bet Little, Dallas and Cobby would get a lower ratio amongst Australians than the American ratio got for their aces.

A similar question among Australians if they were aware that Australia had an independant Australian Flying Corps or Air Force in World War I would only get a yes from an enthusiast.



cam
AFC - http://members.xoom.com/PointCook/index.htm

I'm not at all surprised. Earlier this year I wore my Official Aerodrome Frank Luke Shirt into the bank and the teller asked "Who's Frank Luke?"
This is in Arizona, within 50-60 miles of Luke AFB, and a lot less distance from the state capitol (full of corrupt pols, fershure) where FL's statute stands guard.
Maybe we need to place another feature article in The Arizona Republic...

[stephen]

First of all, the fact that 7 of 50 Americans knew of Luke and Rick is surprising. I'd have guessed 0, 1 or 2.

But Arizonans (Arizonites?) who don't know Luke should be ashamed. Can't believe every school in the state doesn't teach kids about him.

Alright, that was stupid. I can believe it.

As a Canadian, I'm not that surprised, although a little pleasantly so, to see that so many know of Bishop and Barker.

Bear in mind that WW1 was Canada's high water mark in its military history; Vimy Ridge, the gas attack at Ypres, our aces and so on placed Canada at the forefront of the combatants' reputation for its soldiers during and following that war. Canadian troop movements had to be kept secret through much of the war, because if the Germans found out that our troops were moving in front of them they would know an attack was imminent! During the Great War, Canada had a reputation as a fierce, resourceful and determined opponent. Our national pride in Bishop, Barker, Collishaw, McLeod, and the others was intense. While dimmed with time, it still remains.

Except for the liberation of Holland, our soldiers did not play so important a role during the second war (our naval role was significant; most Canadians wouldn't believe we had the third largest navy in the world at the end of WW2).

Today, of course, our reputation is that of peacemaker and as a polite people who wouldn't dream of making war on anyone.

So when Canadians think of themselves in a military sense, the Great War is often as or even more prominent that WW2; quite different from the US or Australia.

Few Americans know of our aces, I bet few even know much about WW1. Your story about Canada is interesting. I wore my William Bishop T-shirt (purchased from Aerodrome, cheap plug!) to a informal computer seminar. A women stared at me, she as Canadian and had NEVER heard of Bishop at all! I educated her on Bishop, she admitted to me that teaching of history in Canada is poor (just like the US). I hope ALL members of the forum will educate as many people as possible about the rich history of WW1 aviation.

Just my two cents.
Barton Stano

Mark M.

You indicate the question was whether they had ever heard of Bishop and/or Barker. I would venture that of the 19 positive answers, they all would have heard of Bishop, and 1 or 2 at most of Barker. Bishop has a much higher profile - possibly because of the controversy in Canada over the disgraceful National Film Board production concerning Bishop.

I asked at coffee in my office a year ago whether anyone knew who Will Barker was. All people who had some university education. Only 1 out of 15 had a remote idea.

I have had 4 children each go through 12 years of the public school system in Canada, and I can assure you that the names Bishop and Barker were never once mentioned in their text books, let alone the likes of Collishaw and McLaren. Mind you, the whole subject of WW1 was covered only in the most cursory manner. I could go on a rant about now, but I'm going to leave it.

[Vin]

Bishop lived to be a prominent figure in the oil industry and a public figure during World War 11. He had a film made of his life and endured the controversy of a Senate enquiry into the facts of his WW 1 flying career. Rickenbacker survived to become a significant figure in the aircraft industry, again with a public role during WW 11 and also had a film made about him. No wonder the general population know about them. There would be no reason why Canadians and Americans should know about Barker and Luke. Why should they ? Scout pilots had little impact upon the war. Unless a conscious effort is made to publicise an individual of course he will be forgotten. Similarly among Australians. Cam is right. Outside of devotees, nobody knows about the individuals in the AFC, none have had films made of them. So the general population does not know about them.

A fair bit of silly tut tutting goes on about this from time to time. Only a small number of enthusiasts know much about military history. It is not an interest for most so why should they care ? The general population, particularly the young, acknowledges the sacrifice of its soldiers – observe what happens around Anzac Day and at Gallipoli. They are just not into hero worship. I reckon the most widely known Australian serviceman from WW 1 would be Simpson and from WW 11, Weary Dunlop. The blokes in East Timor are highly regarded because they kept the peace and didn't go round shooting up the militia. That strikes me as being pretty healthy. The general public is not as ungrateful ungracious and stupid as it is often painted.



Vin

Vin

Not "ungrateful, ungracious and stupid" as you state, but certainly uneducated, ill-informed and disinterested. There is more reason for Americans to know about Luke and for Canadians to know about Barker than there is for them to know about 90% of the politically correct irrelevancies they are presently taught in our respective public school systems.

"Uneducated, ill-informed and disinterested...politically correct irrelevancies" - school bashing is an old sport. The complaint is more that the schools are not producing intellectual clones of ourselves. How smart were WE at 14-15-16 ? Were were passionately interested and informed about history ? Or was our consuming concern centred on acne - or how to avoid looking like a nerd because we really didn't care about Elvis ? Did any of us pick up the interest that leads us to this Forum via schools ? Or was it a chance meeting with a person, an unforseen encounter with a book, a movie that suddenly grabbed us by the mental balls and demanded attention ? Let's face it - history is adult entertainment. Its best proponents are not schools (themselves under stresses, internal and external, that one can scarcely imagine). The best proponents are US - so quit whining, get out and INSPIRE somebody !