Black September

[Craig]

I don't know, but here is some context.

1- I've read that the Pfalz D12 was a welcome replacement for the "350 odd, rapidly ageing Alb D5 and Pfalz D3a's still in service August 1918". This from PL Grosz.

2- "The Great War in the Air", from the Smithsonian, relayes that German pilots recommended that 'all BMW motors go to the Fokker D7 and Mercedes to the Pfalz D3'. I have no way of knowing this, but I suspect he meant 'Pfalz D12'.

3- While many considered the Albatros D3 and D5 better than the Pfalz D3, others - including Allied pilots testing captured examples - found the Pfalz equal to and in somw ways beter then the Albatros. (At least the wings would stay on!)


Considering these three points, one may deduce that there were at LEAST as many Albatros as Pfalz D3 at the front.

It is also possible that by September of 1918 most of the gasoline available to the German Air Force was going to squadrons that primarily were equipped with Fokker DVIIs and Pfalz DXIIs.

regards,

MDD

Allow me to toss my (highly undervalued) two cents Canadian into the ring.

None of the air arms involved in WWI put much stress on identification of enemy a/c types. The British did no training on the subject whatever. The result was a sort of herd mentality when it came to describing a/c types encountered. If a respected pilot believes that the "vee-strutters" he's encountering are Pfalzes and not Albatri, then his companions adopt that view as well. Add to this the possibility of intelligence reports suggesting that the Germans were withdrawing the Albatros types, and you have a sure-fire recipe for identifying anything with a bullet spinner and a monocoque fuselage as a Pfalz D-III. (By the same token, I'm willing to bet that most D-XIIs encountered were identified as Fokkers.)

[rammjaeger]

Don´t know the number of Albatri for September but I have a source stating 307 Albatros Va were still in use in August 1918 (and 65 Dr.I!).

I've seen what Michal & hanes have referred to in their last 2 posts, but only in refference to the Pfalz E series, ie all allied pilots had no idea of how to distinguish between a Pfalz E / Fokker E series. I suspect that according to allied records that no/few Pfalz E series planes ever downed.

However that is not what I am looking for from my prev. post, did allied pilots pad their claims in plane types downed!!!!

ie: German records show x Fokker D7 lost to enemey airial activity but allied records show y Fokker D7,,,......Etc P12, Siemens D4.....Alby DVa, DV, etc, has anyone tabulated these numbers.

[Soderbaum]

Hi Hannes

Does your numbers of Alb DVa and Dr 1 for August 1918 includes the AFP(Air depots) at the front ?

If so they numbers for the operational units were far more less..?

VBR
Gunnar

As per aircraft recognition, in 1991 the Museum Restoration Service (Alexandria Bay, New York, 13607-0070 and Bloomfield, Ontario, K0K 1G0) reprinted in its "Historical Arms Series" (No.27) a British aircraft recognition manual; the original was published in May 1918 under the title ALLIED AND ENEMY AIRCRAFT and cautioned readers, "Not to be taken from the front lines". I do not know the current price or availability; perhaps others can supply that piece of information.

[Barrett]

It didn't get a lot better in WW II. One of the marine F4F pilots on Wake Island told me that en route aboard USS Enterprise, a navy intelligence officer briefed VMF-211 on Japanese aircraft. "None of the silhouettes looked ANYTHING like what we saw after 8 December," Gen. Kinney said (it was later across the Date Line, remember.) "They even had one contraption that resembled a Curtiss pusher..."
Also note that current jet jocks don't get much in the way of recognition because, after all, it's The Missile Age, right? The F-15s that splashed two US helos in '94 or so made two VID passes and "eyeballed" the Blackhawks as Hinds...
BTW: there's a book out on the subject, reviewed in the current Naval Institute Proceedings (sorry, I forget the title.) The author notes that AWACS also cleared USN F-14s & 18s to fire on "Iraqi fighters" that were, respectively, an airliner and a USAF C-5. The tailhookers declined to shoot without visual recognition...
Must make helo pilots mighty nervous. Right, Richard?

[rammjaeger]

Hi Gunnar,

my source is Kranzhoff´s Fokker Dr.I-book. Sadly, I don´t know the original source. Kranzhoff reports 828 Fokker D.VII, 307 Albatros D.Va and 65 Fokker Dr.I for 31.August 1918. Additional he is saying the 65 Dr.I were ca. 3% of the total of available German fighters "on the front" ("Frontstärke"). Jasta-schools are definitely excluded ... but Parks?

Would be interesting to know the numbers of the other types as well but I don´t know source and archiv for that.

VBR

Hannes

[rammjaeger]

John,

I am afraid your suggestion will not work because of the sheer lack of lists containing German losses splitted in airplane types. At least I believe we have still not the necessary data to make this comparison. Its already hard to split up the German victory claims by different German types. Frank Olynyk posted such a list a longer time ago.

Regards

Hannes