Sept. 1917: Nungesser vs. ???

Hello All,

I have seen this story several times in various books/publications concerning Nungesser's duel with an unidentified German flyer. It goes like this:

In September 1917, Charles was flying his Spad to Paris for some well-deserved R&R. Somewhere near LeTouquet airfield, he was engaged by a lone German in a Halberstadt!

They duelled for a considerable time, the dogfight witnessed by many on the ground. Both men riddled the others' plane with bullets, but neither did any real harm. Eventually, Nungesser was running low on fuel and ammo and decided to try for a landing at the airfield. The German followed him down, each dodging and firing the whole time. Charles approached for a landing knowing it was his only chance of survival, but certain the German would finish him off. Instead, the German pilot pulled alongside as Nungesser touched down, waved a salute, gunned his engine and took to the sky again. The identity of the German flyer was never established.

First of all, is this story true? If so, who was the German pilot?

Possible clues would be location, range of a Halberstadt fighter, and the fact that "lone-wolf" hunting was by that time forbidden by the Germans, though I understand some Jastafuhrers (CO's) continued to do it because they were only "winked-at". Finally, how many German pilots in that sector could have fought to a draw with the deadly Nungesser --while flying an obsolete aircraft no less.

Anyone have the answer or other suggestions?

Best Wishes,

Gary

[Richard_Schrader]

Gary;
It's a great story even if it may be false! By September 1917 the Halberstadt was no longer a front line fighter. That does not mean that there were none at the front, but if any, very few.
German fighters were very limited as to range. The max of any model was 1 1/2 hours. I am not sure but I believe that the postion of the lines at that time would prevent such a mission being flown.
Any pilot that would take an out-dated fighter deep into enemy air space alone has got more guts and brains. Then to fight to a match with a modern Spad or Nieuport is some feat indeed.
Richard

[rammjaeger]

Nice story but I agree with Richard.

Are you able to tell us the source(s) for this story?

Regards,

Hannes

Richard and Hannes,

Thank you both for your replies. I found three versions of this story in my files, plus I am certain I have also seen it in other sources.

Some of these books do contain some errors, but in this case, all of them write this story very much as I described it. Each does add a little more detail. All of them included this story as part of their segments on Nungesser, not a general-interest story of WW1.

"Aces High" by Allen Clark:

The German pilot's chivalrous gesture (allowing Nungesser to live after a fierce battle) was virtually unheard of since the early days of the air war. This could provide another clue to the identity of the German pilot.

Clark also states that Nungesser ordered his plane refueled/rearmed and took off again to try to find the mystery man. Further, he states that after returning from his leave, Charles spent "hundreds of hours looking for the Halberstadt."

"Heroes and Aeroplanes of the Great War 1914-1918" by Joseph Phelan:

Adds that Nungesser considered this as a personal humiliation and an affront to his honor.

"Aces & Aircraft of WW I" by Christopher Campbell:

Sets the date as 12.Sept.1917; that Nungesser had taken off from Dunkirk on his way to Paris when he was attacked; identifies the German airplane as a Halberstadt II; states the battle lasted 30 minutes over LeTouquet.

None of this is proof that the story is true. I do not know the origin of it, but I would assume that it was circulated by the French--maybe even by Nungesser himself--as it seems to be told from the French point of view. Supposedly there were many French witnesses on the ground.

If it is a myth, I would doubt that the French would perpetuate it since it did not end in a French victory and furthermore highlights an act of mercy on the part of the "Boche". If it was a German myth, then a German pilot would be credited with outflying the famous French hero using an outdated aircraft, but no one took credit for it to my knowledge.

It still seems improbable, but the story persists. Does anyone have further thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Gary

[rammjaeger]

Thank you, Gary!

Yes, I think also Germans and French would not have reason to invent such a story.

It´s an interesting story. Have only some ideas (or questions):

Did this Anglo-American (?) sources mention there any FRENCH basic source?

In general German fighters had fuel for ca 1,5 hours - a battle of 30 minutes (??) would mean there is only one hour flight time left. Halberstadt flew maybe 150 km per hour (maximum). So the German airfield should be only 75 km (ca 45 miles) away from Paris (in 1917!). I can´t believe that.

Maybe Nunhgesser was meeting an unknown (because seldom or new appearing) German model - and misinterpreted the typ simply. Maybe he overestimated the time of combat also (happened often). A German D-model of 1917 could fly a distance of 300 (Dr.I) to 400 km (Pfalz) - I think thats enough to fly to Paris and back including aircombat.

Another (rather strange) possibility: Had some Anglo-American journalists an interest to play the French war efforts (heroes) down. Any motive for such a behaviour?

[rammjaeger]

Add-on/Correcture:

IN 1916 German fighters (like the Halberstadt) had fuel for ca 1,5 hours and a range of 200 to 250 km.

The models of 1917 could take fuel fore more than 2 hours but used often less.

Dear Hannes,

Sorry to say, my sources have no footnotes or index notes regarding French (or other) sources for this story.

As for any attempt by Anglo-American writers to downplay the French war efforts, I do not think that is very likely. As you know, prior to American entry into WW1, there were some who were pro-Allied, some were pro-German, but most hoped America would stay out of the war in Europe. Once committed to war, America united behind the effort and supported its allies whole-heartedly. Many saw it as symbolic opportunity to repay the French for helping America in its War of Independence with England.

As for Nungesser mistaking the aircraft type, I think that is highly unlikely too. Remember that he had been flying in the war since late 1914 and was very experienced, so I think Nungesser would know a Halberstadt when he saw one! Plus that plane had a very distintive shape to it.

The clue may lie in the location of LeTouquet. At first, I had the name confused with LeBourget near Paris and thought the same as you: A lone German fighter over Paris!! Not possible!! But the story goes that Nungesser had taken off from Dunkirk---on the way to Paris---when attacked. My guess is that LeTouquet is not far from Dunkirk--or the German lines either. Can you help identify the location? Maybe then we can make some probable guesses about the identity of the German flyer. I doubt we will solve the mystery--but if nothing else, at least we may add to the myth!!

Thanks for your help...

Best Wishes,
Gary

[Soderbaum]

Hi

le Touquet is just North of Armentieres probably
near the Front lines at that time..

I think Nungesser must have landed nearby after the combat....there is a long way to Paris...

He could have met aircraft both from 6 and 4 German Army at this location.
There where a huge amount of German units within 4 Army at this time.

Exist there any good book or War Diary about Nungesser...?

I agree with Hannes that misidentifying enemy areoplanes is more a rule then exceptions.

VBR
Gunnar

I remember reading an account of this battle 30 years ago. Nungesser was mounted in a Nieuport 17, and the Halberstadt was black or dark grey. There was an illustration of the German pilot waving his salute. If the story was true, which seems unlikely, then the reason he never found the lone Halberstadt is probably because it was replaced by an Albatros while Nungesser was on leave. Most likely a myth perpetuated by somebody interested in demonstrating that Germans are human too.

Dear Gunnar,

Thank you for the information!

Many books about WW1 aviation have articles about Nungesser, but I know of no detailed biography about him. That seems strange since he was such a fascinating character.

Now Detective Soderbaum, have you any thoughts regarding possible German "suspects" in this particular Nungesser story?

Thanks again for your reply...

Best Regards,

Gary