Worst Ace.

[Billy_Bishop]

Previously, Greyhawk typed...
"if you ask me the men who did die deserve more credit then those who lived,..."
Now, if that doesn't indicate that you give more credance to those who died in action, I don't know what does.

Concerning Fonck's claims, I thought he claimed the victories of a man he THOUGHT was dead, but turned out to be alive. Besides, as I said before, I just don't care for the man, his character, as portrayed in various books, rubbed me the wrong way.

Most questionable ace? How about Goering??

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Ginger.]

This is turning into a great dogfight as a sprog I'm keeping upsun and turnig tightly.

Yes, Al I do give more credit to those who died, because they made the ultimate sacrific. Those who died deserve it, and the honor that comes along with it. Like I said above, I do agree, Goering was not liked, as I stated above. I'm calling for a truce in this matter, I believe in discussion, but this is getting to ugly, as I said before it's not to anger.

The idea that someone dieing in a war contributed more, or should be held up on a higher pedestal is rather insulting to those that lived. Yes, there were those that gave their life in a brave act and that is paying an ultimate price. There were also those that did incredibly stupid things and got themselves (or their wingmen) killed. Sometimes dying is just stupid and there shouldn't be some automatic elevation of their status because they were an idiot. Each pilot must be taken on a case by case basis and have his individual efforts evaluated. Whether he lived or died in the act should have no bearing. If two pilots engage the enemy and get the same number of kills, and when the opportunity to disengage comes and one pilot does it while the other foolishly tries for one more kill and dies, who is the idiot? According to your criteria the dead should get more credit. I disagree. He threw his life away.

Someone who sacrificed himself for the greater good of his comrades should be rewarded. Someone who foolishly threw his life away in a reckless manner should not.

Sensei

As you can tell, I don't verbalize my entire thoughts, for as I type them, I lose my wording.

As for those who died foolishly, they still deserve some awknowledgement, although not as much.

As reguard to the question of the disengaged, and the one who fights on, there can be two reasons for this:

1) Glory hunters and thosewho are blood thirsty.

2) Those who have other pilots in mind. If a pilot would see a infantry flier, and a D.Va diving at it, would you a let the D.Va kill the pilot, or try to save the life of that person. We don't know what goes through the mind of the dead in an incident such as that.

If that person was known to be a kill hog as I call them, just for glory, or foolish acts, if they die then Honor is not applied, that would be for lack of a better word fool hearty.

Thank You Al, the paragragh

is what it was.

All,
Those who died came out losers in the fights they were killed in. Dying in war is no great feat! Any rookie can die, it's the staying alive to tell your tale (having engaged in combat of course) that denotes the skilled and truly GREAT ACES. Who ever said that death is heroic must have a suicide wish!

"You don't win a war by dying for your country, IT IS WON by making the other poor dumb b-stard DIE FOR HIS country!" - G.S. Patton Brigadier general, US Army. I use this quote because its author was one of the ablest Generals the U.S. Army ever produced! Yes, he saw a lot of combat time.
Regards,
Jim 'ACE' - NNWA 'KEEPER OF THE DRAGON'

[Shooter]

Greyhawk:

There are few "third-rail" issues out here, but Billy Bishop is one of them. If you encourage a disparaging word about him, Al will leap to his defense INSTANTLY, as I suspect you now know.

Another is Frank Luke Jr. Stephen Skinner is his advocate.

Personally, I ain't got no dog in either fight. The Forum is for free discussion and no subject is out of bounds in my opinion (Scott has also said so on at least one occasion). You would, however, be advised to make sure you dot your "ayes" and cross your "tees" in either case, since these two guys have a mountain of information on both drivers.

VBR

Shooter sends

PS: Hiya Al!

hey "Ace" are you saying Frank Luke, MvR, Karl Allmoernor, and all those are not worth the time, all these people died serving there country.
Do you think those people who died wanted to die for his country, or do you think they wanted to fight for it. It is easy to die for your country, but what if that person had a family, is it just as simple and degrading to them. If one died for his country it is because he choose to defend it, as one of the men in this forum said unless you have lost someone to war there is no true right to say such a thing.

Greyhawk,
Smooth your hair back and sit down! I believe it was your statement about "those that died for their country being better than those who survived". I know someone will correct me if I'm in error about who made it! Having served during a couple of wars, not in combat, but knowing many combat vets and having lengthy discussions with military pilots; I've come to the conclusion that NOBODY goes off to war to die, but if you screw up ... you do! If you go into combat (dog fighting) and get your plane shot out from under you, YOU LOST THE FIGHT - GET OVER IT! There is no disparagement of anyone's valor by saying they lost! They had the courage to go up and make the attempt. But as I stated before "it's easy to ge killed during a war", just do something stupid, and your opponent 99% of the time WILL capitalize on it. Do you honestly believe that he will say " Jeez ... he's putting up a good fight, I guess I'll let him go" ? Figure the odds! As Shooter once said "War is a full contact sport" ... you know ... Kill or be killed. The whole point of a fight is you have one victor and one vanquished, or in the American vernacular a Winner and a Loser. If your favorite ace comes out the loser in a fight, it means that no matter how good he was, his string of luck ran out, and his opponent got the breaks! Don't expect any apologies for saying what is true! You people need to come down from the fantasy world of "heroic death", there is no such thing! No points for second place! I believe it was stated best in the movie 'Blue Max'- Bruno Stachel said it to his captain - "It's a cruel world, you said so yourself Herr Hauptmann!"

Once again, no disparagement of the courage of going up!

Regards,
Jim 'ACE' - NNWA 'KEEPER OF THE DRAGON'