Worst Ace.

Richard_Schrader · 23 July 2000, 08:00 AM

Jim Ace reminded me of something when he said that he had good training, and bad training. My very first aircraft recognition class in the Army consisted of a idiot saying that the only difference in Russian aircraft, and American aircraft was that the Russian's were ugly, and ours were good looking!
As far as the election, I agree with Jim Ace all the way on this one!
Richard

Barrett · 23 July 2000, 08:09 AM

Ref. top guns losing wingmen: evidently both Bong and Hartmann apparently lost one each. Bong had the rep of being a score-happy shooter, largely because Gen. Kenney (CO 5th AF) gave him what the RAF would've called a roving commission. That led to envy on the part of many other pilots. Anyway, the issue is addressed in the out-of-print Champlin Press bio, "Ace of Aces," cowritten with Bong's brother.
According to Toliver's bio, Hartmann had one wingman shot down (he survived, I think.) It was a former bomber pilot unaccustomed to rough, fast maneuvering and didn't react fast enough to avoid an attack.

Reinout · 24 July 2000, 12:05 AM

Barrett,

The bomber pilot flying as Hartmann's Katcmarek was Günther Capito, an experienced bomber pilot. However he was not accustomed to the tight turning radius of the Me109 (well, compared to Junkers and Heinkels that is) and when the two of them were under attack by a Russian ace (25 or so victories) Capito didn't respond to the instructions Bubi was yelling through the intercom. The Russian ace got Capito but was then shot and killed by Bubi. The trio landed close to each other (the Russian one crashed I guess) and Capito got a horrible cussing from Bubi. Don't recall what became of the former bomber man.

Also I recently read in a book in which Bubi writes something of himself (published just before his death) that he was shot down about 2 times which is strange considering he was shot down on his first encounter with the Sturmovik as well as on the second (he brought himself down). Then there's of course the legendary return of Erich after having been shot down in Russian territory (he had about 100 victories then) so my memory tells me he was downed at least 3 times. Not sure if he was downed 18 times, but it's not implausible considering he flew over a 1000 missions.

Kind regards,

Reinout

Ron_F · 24 July 2000, 03:07 PM

Funny you should mention the Russian ace with 25 victories. Seems a topic at 12 oclock high! asked the same. so far, the idenity of the Russian ace hasnt been corroborated yet.....whether it was indeed an ace or not.
With the newer books coming out about the Russian front, perhaps they will find out come the 4 or 5th volume.

regards,
Ron

Reinout · 24 July 2000, 10:45 PM

Ron,

It's a coincidence!

My sources for the story are Toliver & Constable in their book "Holt Hartmann vom Himmel" although I assume it's a German translation of an English-based work.

The identity wasn't mentioned in the book as far as I recall and I have seen one or two cases where T&C aren't 100% accurate (this is in a different book) so I too would be willing to learn the identity.

Problem is that Russian aces aren't well-known in the west and they are certainly underappreciated when it comes to literature. Perhaps the historian who spent the past years researching and writing that book about air combat on the Eastern Front has the answer? Can't recall the exact title at the moment of course.

Kind regards,

Reinout

Ron_F · 25 July 2000, 01:49 PM

Black star Red Cross by Bergstrom. his site is listed in a banner at 12 oclock high! and he was was the one that mentioned perhaps by vol 4 or 5 that they will find out the truth. i do have a book detailing the Russian aces at home, but is a very big book. Not sure if it would even hint at who it was. will see if any of them listed with 25 victories fit the bill...

first book in Black cross Red star should be out soon..

regards,
Ron

rammjaeger · 26 July 2000, 09:06 AM

For Russian WWII-aces you can look also at

http://wio.newmail.ru/aces/ace2.htm

but it needs some time and works not always.

rammjaeger · 26 July 2000, 09:13 AM

Sorry, can not add a translation program for the Russian names. In emergency cases you can also e-mail to me for help with the translation of some of the names (BUT NOT FOR ALL! I work fulltime.).

Reinout · 26 July 2000, 09:51 AM

Ron and Hannes,

Thanks for the site and the title of the book, that was indeed the one I was referring to. I recall reading some bio's on the net which the author had put up as a promotion or preview of his book. But that's at least one year ago, possibly two.

Kind regards,

Reinout

26 July 2000, 12:43 PM

Reinout,

I have this site and can also do some translating for you if you need it.

regards,

MDD